Technical Rough running at medium speed

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Technical Rough running at medium speed

What's your thinking here? I've never worked on a transmission before. If the car is stationary and in neutral, rev the engine to 3k, the car shakes. Drive the car in 1st at 11 MPH, or 2nd at 18 MPH or 3rd at 30 MPH or 4th at 43 MPH, the engine is doing 3k, the car shakes. Do the same road speed with your foot on the clutch, the engine is not doing 3k, the car doesn't shake. What is happening with the release bearing or pressure plate that is causing the vibration?
If there is damage to the centre-plate or release bearing, having the clutch depressed could be stopping the play in either the release bearing or centre plate from vibrating. Crankshaft end-play has been mentioned as a possible cause---I think that this is unlikely. It is very difficult to diagnose with any certaincy from a distance, but I really do supect the clutch as the main culprit. There is a small chamce that the flywheel has become loose---again, engaging the clutch would put pressurs on the flywheel that would eliminate the vibration. I thank that this is going to call for an"engine-out" job, not a difficult job.
 
If there is damage to the centre-plate or release bearing, having the clutch depressed could be stopping the play in either the release bearing or centre plate from vibrating. Crankshaft end-play has been mentioned as a possible cause---I think that this is unlikely. It is very difficult to diagnose with any certaincy from a distance, but I really do supect the clutch as the main culprit. There is a small chamce that the flywheel has become loose---again, engaging the clutch would put pressurs on the flywheel that would eliminate the vibration. I thank that this is going to call for an"engine-out" job, not a difficult job.

Spot-on diagnosis.
 
I think reading back through subsequent messages, we’ve possibly been thrown a red herring by the mention of the sound going away when the clutch is pressed in. @smart51 confirmed this is while driving, and therefore revs drop out of the resonating zone as soon as you let off the throttle and clutch in, not revving in neutral with the clutch in.

@smart51, will you try revving the car in neutral with the clutch depresses and see if it still resonates?
 
I think reading back through subsequent messages, we’ve possibly been thrown a red herring by the mention of the sound going away when the clutch is pressed in. @smart51 confirmed this is while driving, and therefore revs drop out of the resonating zone as soon as you let off the throttle and clutch in, not revving in neutral with the clutch in.

@smart51, will you try revving the car in neutral with the clutch depresses and see if it still resonates?
The car resonates equally with any position of the clutch pedal with the gearbox in neutral and the engine revving to 3k.

That said, the engine is running like a bag of rocks since I took the points out to inspect the bob weights. It won't rev beyond 3000 and won't go beyond 23 MPH in 3rd. I checked the points gap and timing before I went out. With the timing strobe set to 0, the pulley aligns with the line, with the strobe set to 10 the pulley aligns with the arrow, so 10 degrees BTDC. Here is also a short clip of the distributor running without the cap.





 
Is that rattling at full throttle only? Or does it happen at all throttle openings?

If your timing is still advanced beyond standard, it could be knocking/detonating now you’ve got full throttle.
GOldnrust... new to this forum today and for the life of me I cant figure out how to ask a question to the forum... but from your answer here I thought I'd ask you.......My new to me 1978 124 Sider is having a hard time starting up..... it cranks and cranks and cranks peppering the gas it eventually starts and idles. Any ideas as to why wont start right away? After it runs a bit .... if you turn it off it will start right up. Thanks
 
@smart51, that seems like a fair amount of arcing to me, I'd still be tempted to try a new condenser?

@1978124fiatspider, welcome to the forum 🙂. Sorry I'm probably not the best person to help, as I know little of the 124 spider. Rather than further clutter up Smart51's thread in the classic 500 section, you'll likely find the people who know your car better in the Classic 124 section; https://www.fiatforum.com/forums/124-spider-classic.142/ The orange 'Post thread' button towards to the top right of the page is where you can start a thread of your own with your question.
 
A thread resurrection after a month of distraction. I suspect the coil had deteriorated through not having a ballast resistor, resulting in an engine that would hardly run. Since the last post in this thread, I have replaced the coil, HT leads and spark plugs, and fitted a ballast resistor, plus I have stripped and ultrasonically cleaned the carburettor.

The engine is running, though not quite entirely smoothly. Acceleration is consistent through the revs, suggesting there isn't a problem with how the engine is fuelling or sparking. The car vibrates significantly at medium revs. It can be felt through the seat and heard by everything rattling. It could be that something in the engine is out of balance, or the whole car has been shaken loose and is just being excited by the normal vibration of the engine.
 
I've come round to the idea that something somewhere must be physically out of balance. I'm probably going to have to drop the engine to find it. What should I be looking out for?

To summarise, there is a problem where the whole car vibrates when the engine revs are between 2800 RPM and 3500 RPM. At higher or lower engine speeds the car runs well. The problem shows itself at zero throttle (slowing down, or going down hill) or from modest throttle up to full throttle. There is a point with the throttle barely open that the vibration is at a minimum. I guess the engine is producing enough power to drive itself and it is neither driving the car forwards nor being driven by the car (during overrun). It happens in all gears so is RPM related not MPH related.

If you were doing the job, what would you look at first?
 
I've come round to the idea that something somewhere must be physically out of balance. I'm probably going to have to drop the engine to find it. What should I be looking out for?

To summarise, there is a problem where the whole car vibrates when the engine revs are between 2800 RPM and 3500 RPM. At higher or lower engine speeds the car runs well. The problem shows itself at zero throttle (slowing down, or going down hill) or from modest throttle up to full throttle. There is a point with the throttle barely open that the vibration is at a minimum. I guess the engine is producing enough power to drive itself and it is neither driving the car forwards nor being driven by the car (during overrun). It happens in all gears so is RPM related not MPH related.

If you were doing the job, what would you look at first?
It sounds as if engine vibration is being transfered to the car. Difficult to diagnose from a distance, but my initial suggestion would be to ensure that both of the gear-box mounting rubbers are OK, that the gearbox hasn't slipped down so that the box is touching the cross-member (the mounts are in slots on the cross-member) and finally, check that the central-mount spring hasn'e broken, or, isn't sitting correctly. A friend of mine put a "sports" spring into the rear-cross-member mount---the vibration transmitted through the car was horrendous! We refitted the original spring---chalk and cheese! All the vibration dissapeared.
 
Good points above about checking the engine and gearbox mounting points.

If you’re happy that it’s not that, then there’s two ways an engine may feel ‘out of balance’, one is a physical imbalance the other is an imbalance of combustion.

Looking at physical, I’d start by removing the fan belt. I know you checked the fan span freely before, but worth a double check. You will be ok to run the engine briefly with the belt removed.

You previously said the problem showed up when revving in neutral and stationary, so you should be able to back to back it with the belt on then off and see if that makes a difference to the vibrations.

Removing the lower flywheel cover, I’d then take a look at any sign of damage, or play/movement in the clutch pressure plate or flywheel. I’d also give the front pulley a good firm pull / push checking for any movement.

If that all seems normal then if you still think it’s a physical imbalance then you’re talking about pulling the engine and doing a full strip down to check for mechanical damage to the pistons/rods/crank/cam and associated bearings.

You are suffering with fouling to one spark plug and not the other, which could indicate sone sort of mechanical imbalance, damage to position rings/bore on one cylinder, A bent valve that’s worn the guide and many other potential issues.

Don’t panic though, as the difference in plugs could also be a combustion imbalance.

So before going that far and stripping the engine down, I’d backtrack to the potential combustion imbalance. The Siamese intake port design rules out a lot of the factors on the intake side, and your recent fairly balanced compression test numbers also rule out a reason for imbalanced combustion.

Still, I think it would be worth checking a couple of things. If you have a dial gauge, or even it might be possible with calipers if you’re careful, check that all 4 valves are opening with equal lift. A worn cam lobe would allow different amounts of gas to flow in/out of the two cylinders, and might not show on a compression test. While you’re there look for any mechanical damage like a broken valve spring, or bent pushrod.

You could remove the exhaust and check for any signs of internal blockage. If one pipe was flowing better than the other that would create imbalanced combustion.

That kinda covers it for air flow imbalance, the final factor could still be a spark power imbalance. Even though you’re running a wasted spark system which again removes some of the chance for imbalance, there are two lobes on the cam in the distributer that open the points. Check both sides for wear. Check the points gap, then rotate the crank 360 degrees and check the points gap again, now on the other side of the distributer cam. A difference in gap will mean a difference in dwell, and therefore spark power, and spark advance between the two cylinders.

If you’ve not found the smoking gun by this point, then maybe it’s time for that full engine strip down to see if you can find the problem. 🙁
 
It sounds as if engine vibration is being transfered to the car. Difficult to diagnose from a distance, but my initial suggestion would be to ensure that both of the gear-box mounting rubbers are OK, that the gearbox hasn't slipped down so that the box is touching the cross-member (the mounts are in slots on the cross-member) and finally, check that the central-mount spring hasn'e broken, or, isn't sitting correctly. A friend of mine put a "sports" spring into the rear-cross-member mount---the vibration transmitted through the car was horrendous! We refitted the original spring---chalk and cheese! All the vibration dissapeared.
The gearbox mounts look like new, I've already looked at them, but I haven't checked to see if the box is touching anything.

If anything, I'd say the rear spring is too soft. If you're a bit harsh lifting off the throttle, there is a bang from the rear and the whole car moves down. I assume the spring in bottoming out (or topping out). The same if you've come off the choke to early and snap open the throttle. I've previously taken the cross member off to clean out the oil filter. Everything looks good.
 
Whilst the engine moves around a fair bit on the spring, banging as you lift off the throttle aggressively is not normal. So that might be worth investigating further?

Does the 500R use the 126 style engine mount, or the 500F/L style? I can’t vouch for the 126 style, but the FL style has two pairs of rubber bushes as part of the engine mount spring assembly. If these are worn out they might not be damping the movement of the spring, allowing for your vibration and banging noises.
 
Whilst the engine moves around a fair bit on the spring, banging as you lift off the throttle aggressively is not normal. So that might be worth investigating further?

Does the 500R use the 126 style engine mount, or the 500F/L style? I can’t vouch for the 126 style, but the FL style has two pairs of rubber bushes as part of the engine mount spring assembly. If these are worn out they might not be damping the movement of the spring, allowing for your vibration and banging noises.
The 126 mount.
 
Looking at physical, I’d start by removing the fan belt. I know you checked the fan span freely before, but worth a double check. You will be ok to run the engine briefly with the belt removed.

You previously said the problem showed up when revving in neutral and stationary, so you should be able to back to back it with the belt on then off and see if that makes a difference to the vibrations.

Test 1: rev the engine to 3k while stationary, both with and without the fan belt.
result: no difference either way.
 
I couldn't get the car to reverse up my metal ramps without spitting them out backwards, so I've had to make some wooden ones. Finally I can raise the car and take a look underneath.

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So now the clutch. What am I looking for to find a source of vibration? I've rotated the engine by a full turn and it all looks OK.

20230930_150919.jpg


20230930_150113.jpg


There is oil dripping from the clutch arm and the pin that hold the thrust bearing. Nothing looks loose, damaged or off centre though.
 
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I’d try turning the engine through 1 full rotation, looking for any inconsistency. Things like missing bolts, or fingers of the clutch pressure disc that aren’t sat level with the others etc.

Also give it a good firm pull/wobble and check for any movement 🙂

Looking at those pictures, there’s nothing of concern though.
 
Today I fitted a new engine mount. The old mount does look a bit tired next to the new. The old spring is slightly shorter and the old rubbers look squashed flat a bit.

It has produced mixed results. There is a bit more vibration at idle with the new mount, which goes off as the revs rise. There's a bit less vibration in the middle, where the problem was. It's still not great, but it is less bad than it was. I'm not expecting modern car levels of refinement, but it is still worse than it was when I got it. When I get time, I'll go for a longer run and see what it's like at higher speed.
 
I would take this as positive news, if changing the engine mount has changed the symptoms, then that does suggest a mounting issue rather than anything more drastically wrong. 🙂

I know you said the gearbox mounts look new, but they can still be poor quality or gone soft/hard with age. That might be another thing to look into if mounting is looking like a cause.
 
Today we learn that not all luck is bad luck. I've just come back from a 45 mile drive out to Halfpenny Green Airfield and back, which is a nice run through small country lanes. The plan was to work out where the car was running well and where it was still vibrating and that's what I did. What I noticed is that the window trims and I suspect the runners inside the doors are a big source of the rattles. They are a bit crumbly. Anyway, on the way back, the car was vibrating a lot less. The problem has been around 30 MPH in 3rd and 35 - 45 MPH in 4th. I tried to keep my speed to the low 30s or 50+ on the outbound leg. A little at a time, it got better, so I can now drive at 30 in 3rd quite normally, though 40 in 4th is still a bit buzzy. I don't know if the new engine mount has bedded in a bit or whether whatever had shaken loose has now shaken back into place. Whisper it quietly, but the car is almost back to normal.

The pretty side of the airfield doesn't have anywhere to stop for a photo, so you'll have to make do with a shot from the working side.

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