General Request for advice

[chrisgg]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum and not a technical person. I am hoping someone could offer some advice for my 2018 Fiat Panda 1.2 Petrol with 29k miles. I have had this car from new.

I have just had to change from my regualar garage due to retirement. I booked my Panda in for a full service and MOT. The garage called with a list of what work needs doing over and above the service & MOT. This includes:
Front Discs and Pads
2 x rear shocks
4 x tyres
Brake Fluid
Coolant change
Cam Belt & Water pump

Becuase I know very little about cars I have done a little research online (how I found this forum). My findings & thoughts are that the Cam belt is recommended to be changed every 5 years or 75k miles, shock absorbers usually last longer than this, brake disks usually last longer than this, the other items I assume are expected wear and tear.

For reference, I am not an aggressive driver and avoid pot holes where possible and live in the midlands and use mainly main roads. My old regular garage used to tell me when things were on their way out but say you can probably get another year etc etc.
Having discussed this with the new garage, they have said these are the recommended repairs and wouldn't commit to saying the extent of need to replace.

Having very little knowledge about the items, I have no idea whether these recommendations are average for the age & miles of the car or whether some of these are excessively careful.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Chris

 

[bugsymike]

It is difficult without seeing the vehicle and I when running my motor business I always forewarned my customers of any possible future repairs etc. much like your previous one. I found it helped build up the trust between the customer and myself.
Regarding the cambelt change, as you say very low mileage, but manufacturers advise changing at 5 years on some makes as the rubber can age and crack, in which case if it failed the damage to the engine would be considerably more than an early belt change.
Though often when changing belts you would say it wasn't badly worn, so it is precautionary, though no one likes spending.
Regarding water pump and coolant on many vehicles changing the cam belt which should come as a kit with new tensioners and guide pulleys, they are often supplied with the water pump as part of the kit, but if the old pump is reused and is driven by the cam belt then the new tighter cam belt can often finish off an elderly water pump, changing the coolant at the same time makes sense.
Brake fluid change is often recommended during major services, in the old days the brake fluid was more hydroscopic meaning it could absorb water over a period of time and during heavy braking cause the water to boil giving brake failure. Although more of a problem in the old days, standards have tightened regarding safety issues and so fluid change is advised.
Regarding the brakes , shocks and tyres, can you look at your previous Mot certificate and as a guide see if any of that was advised as requiring future attention.
Though not impossible it does seem a bit unlucky to need all the work at the same time given the very low mileage, though not impossible.
I do understand your caution, one of my neighbours bought a new Nissan some years ago, always had it serviced at the dealer and when due for it's first Mot he was presented with a massive list of work needed going to around £2000. He asked me to take it to my regular Mot Station to inspect, whereupon with his permission, I carried out a full service and the Mot for under £200 and he stayed as a regular customer until I retired several years later.
I would say before running my own business I had been a foreman of a dealership and undertook many Mot inspections and oversaw several Mot testers, so in know way would I accept a low standard. However I knew I could always justify any work I advised my customers needed so they remained loyal for many years.
From what you indicate it sounds like they are not saying these safety things would fail an Mot merely that they are starting to get worn and they would advise them. Did they realise you had only done 29K miles in five years and that now retired it may be even less!
I assume it wasn't a fast fit type place where the staff rely on commission?
It is a shame you were not able to stay with your original trusted garage.

 

[koalar]

There’s no point in changing things before the maintenance schedule unless they are damaged

Maybe I am reading this wrong

I make 8 years or 72K so belt is still young

I am open to being shot down in flames but to me alarm bells are starting to ringing

 

[koalar]

Everything about the maintenance /service intervals is in the owners manual

Your paper copy is easiest

But here’s an online

https://aftersales.fiat.com/eLumData/EN/00/319_PANDA/00_319_PANDA_603.99.249_EN_01_09.12_L_LG/00_319_PANDA_603.99.249_EN_01_09.12_L_LG.pdf

Some give both months or miles it’s which is reached sooner

But Brake fluid for example is every 4 years

 

[chrisgg]

It is difficult without seeing the vehicle and I when running my motor business I always forewarned my customers of any possible future repairs etc. much like your previous one. I found it helped build up the trust between the customer and myself.
Regarding the cambelt change, as you say very low mileage, but manufacturers advise changing at 5 years on some makes as the rubber can age and crack, in which case if it failed the damage to the engine would be considerably more than an early belt change.
Though often when changing belts you would say it wasn't badly worn, so it is precautionary, though no one likes spending.
Regarding water pump and coolant on many vehicles changing the cam belt which should come as a kit with new tensioners and guide pulleys, they are often supplied with the water pump as part of the kit, but if the old pump is reused and is driven by the cam belt then the new tighter cam belt can often finish off an elderly water pump, changing the coolant at the same time makes sense.
Brake fluid change is often recommended during major services, in the old days the brake fluid was more hydroscopic meaning it could absorb water over a period of time and during heavy braking cause the water to boil giving brake failure. Although more of a problem in the old days, standards have tightened regarding safety issues and so fluid change is advised.
Regarding the brakes , shocks and tyres, can you look at your previous Mot certificate and as a guide see if any of that was advised as requiring future attention.
Though not impossible it does seem a bit unlucky to need all the work at the same time given the very low mileage, though not impossible.
I do understand your caution, one of my neighbours bought a new Nissan some years ago, always had it serviced at the dealer and when due for it's first Mot he was presented with a massive list of work needed going to around £2000. He asked me to take it to my regular Mot Station to inspect, whereupon with his permission, I carried out a full service and the Mot for under £200 and he stayed as a regular customer until I retired several years later.
I would say before running my own business I had been a foreman of a dealership and undertook many Mot inspections and oversaw several Mot testers, so in know way would I accept a low standard. However I knew I could always justify any work I advised my customers needed so they remained loyal for many years.
From what you indicate it sounds like they are not saying these safety things would fail an Mot merely that they are starting to get worn and they would advise them. Did they realise you had only done 29K miles in five years and that now retired it may be even less!
I assume it wasn't a fast fit type place where the staff rely on commission?
It is a shame you were not able to stay with your original trusted garage.

Many thanks for your advice. I really appreciate the time taken to help. The garage is local independent and not a main dealer.
Re, milage, they have the car so would assume they would have looked at the mileage. Worrying if not.
I cannot remember any tyre changes over the years plus it sat for several months during lock down so I understand there could be perishing. They said there was a lot of wear on the front tyres on the inside? I've no idea what means.
This sounds like my best option would be to get the fluid, coolant, mot required tyres and cam belt done and take it somewhere else to check brakes, disks and shocks.
Would that seem a good idea?

 

[bugsymike]

Many thanks for your advice. I really appreciate the time taken to help. The garage is local independent and not a main dealer.
Re, milage, they have the car so would assume they would have looked at the mileage. Worrying if not.
I cannot remember any tyre changes over the years plus it sat for several months during lock down so I understand there could be perishing. They said there was a lot of wear on the front tyres on the inside? I've no idea what means.
This sounds like my best option would be to get the fluid, coolant, mot required tyres and cam belt done and take it somewhere else to check brakes, disks and shocks.
Would that seem a good idea?

It is hard to say for sure without being there.
I should rely on your instincts, you are obviously a little concerned and it does sound like from what you have said like they are "going in with both feet".
As Koalar says according to hand book cambelt not due for a change yet anyway, so maybe leave until then for waterpump and coolant job.
Have you had any recommendations from friends that guided you to that garage?

 

[chrisgg]

Everything about the maintenance /service intervals is in the owners manual

Your paper copy is easiest

But here’s an online

https://aftersales.fiat.com/eLumData/EN/00/319_PANDA/00_319_PANDA_603.99.249_EN_01_09.12_L_LG/00_319_PANDA_603.99.249_EN_01_09.12_L_LG.pdf

Some give both months or miles it’s which is reached sooner

But Brake fluid for example is every 4 years

Thank you for this. I've had a look through it. The 72k change does not seem to apply to a panda 1.2 petrol.
I cannot see anywhere in the servicing schedule that states to replace the timing belt. Just a check for the 0.9 etc.
I assume my panda will have one? Dumb question, is a timing belt/toothed timing belt the same thing as a cam belt?

 

[chrisgg]

It is hard to say for sure without being there.
I should rely on your instincts, you are obviously a little concerned and it does sound like from what you have said like they are "going in with both feet".
As Koalar says according to hand book cambelt not due for a change yet anyway, so maybe leave until then for waterpump and coolant job.
Have you had any recommendations from friends that guided you to that garage?

No recommendation, it was just very local to me so convenient.

 

[koalar]

Dumb question, is a timing belt/toothed timing belt the same thing as a cam belt?

yes

 

[chrisgg]

Thank you for all your help and advice. I will report back on the outcome

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum and not a technical person. I am hoping someone could offer some advice for my 2018 Fiat Panda 1.2 Petrol with 29k miles. I have had this car from new.

I have just had to change from my regualar garage due to retirement. I booked my Panda in for a full service and MOT. The garage called with a list of what work needs doing over and above the service & MOT. This includes:
Front Discs and Pads
2 x rear shocks
4 x tyres
Brake Fluid
Coolant change
Cam Belt & Water pump

Becuase I know very little about cars I have done a little research online (how I found this forum). My findings & thoughts are that the Cam belt is recommended to be changed every 5 years or 75k miles, shock absorbers usually last longer than this, brake disks usually last longer than this, the other items I assume are expected wear and tear.

For reference, I am not an aggressive driver and avoid pot holes where possible and live in the midlands and use mainly main roads. My old regular garage used to tell me when things were on their way out but say you can probably get another year etc etc.
Having discussed this with the new garage, they have said these are the recommended repairs and wouldn't commit to saying the extent of need to replace.

Having very little knowledge about the items, I have no idea whether these recommendations are average for the age & miles of the car or whether some of these are excessively careful.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Chris

Giving the garage the benefit of the doubt... I am not surprised about the front discs - the low mileage has probably meant (and I think you say so in another post) that the car sat (or sits) around a lot so I'd expect that there's pitting/corrosion issues rather than wear?

Shocks I am guessing either the bushes are torn or more likely they can see some indication of fluid on the covers - doesn't mean they have failed but maybe on their way out.

The cam belt thing; personally I would change it, clearly not on the basis of mileage but age, rubbers (more correctly, elastomers) do age and cracks will develop - look up ozone cracking in elastomers for example (although I am not saying that will be the case here). I think it was Alfa that changed service periods for cam belts to timescale not mileage a while ago.

Coolant change would be by default if the cam belt and therefore water pump were changed. If you change the cam belt then it is prudent risk management to change the water pump since I believe it is driven by the cambelt in the 1.2 (I have the 0.9 TA) and therefore you don't want the bearing to seize in a worn pump and break the cam belt.

So, in summary, I'd say the recommendations included an "abundance of caution" as "they' say (whoever they are?). If the pads and discs were MOT advisories rather than failures (likewise tyre) you could leave them I guess, but as an Engineer, I'd get it done but then you may have budget considerations? Based on the mileage, and assuming you have had a trouble free last couple of years (outside warranty) then I'd say this is just part and parcel of running the (any) car.

 

[chrisgg]

Giving the garage the benefit of the doubt... I am not surprised about the front discs - the low mileage has probably meant (and I think you say so in another post) that the car sat (or sits) around a lot so I'd expect that there's pitting/corrosion issues rather than wear?

Shocks I am guessing either the bushes are torn or more likely they can see some indication of fluid on the covers - doesn't mean they have failed but maybe on their way out.

The cam belt thing; personally I would change it, clearly not on the basis of mileage but age, rubbers (more correctly, elastomers) do age and cracks will develop - look up ozone cracking in elastomers for example (although I am not saying that will be the case here). I think it was Alfa that changed service periods for cam belts to timescale not mileage a while ago.

Coolant change would be by default if the cam belt and therefore water pump were changed. If you change the cam belt then it is prudent risk management to change the water pump since I believe it is driven by the cambelt in the 1.2 (I have the 0.9 TA) and therefore you don't want the bearing to seize in a worn pump and break the cam belt.

So, in summary, I'd say the recommendations included an "abundance of caution" as "they' say (whoever they are?). If the pads and discs were MOT advisories rather than failures (likewise tyre) you could leave them I guess, but as an Engineer, I'd get it done but then you may have budget considerations? Based on the mileage, and assuming you have had a trouble free last couple of years (outside warranty) then I'd say this is just part and parcel of running the (any) car.

Thank you for the advice. I suppose the warning bells have rung on using a new garage and suddenly being told a low milage 5 year old car needs just over £2k of work (including the service and mot).
The car is run roughly 4-5 days a week but it did stand for several months during lock down a couple of years ago.
My understanding is that only 2 tyres would be an mot failure.
Budget is obviously a consideration. I think my biggest problem is my old garage were very good at giving advice of severity (e.g it will need doing but you should get another year out of it). The new garage will only say these are issues with no estimation of longevity. I understand no guarantee on time advice but having very little knowledge of cars some rough estimation is valuable to me.
This and all advice given is really appreciated and gives me a lot more information than I've had.
This really is appreciated from you all
Chris

 

[Panda IIs]

Thank you for the advice. I suppose the warning bells have rung on using a new garage and suddenly being told a low milage 5 year old car needs just over £2k of work (including the service and mot).
The car is run roughly 4-5 days a week but it did stand for several months during lock down a couple of years ago.
My understanding is that only 2 tyres would be an mot failure.
Budget is obviously a consideration. I think my biggest problem is my old garage were very good at giving advice of severity (e.g it will need doing but you should get another year out of it). The new garage will only say these are issues with no estimation of longevity. I understand no guarantee on time advice but having very little knowledge of cars some rough estimation is valuable to me.
This and all advice given is really appreciated and gives me a lot more information than I've had.
This really is appreciated from you all
Chris

One thing I would suggest is maybe a second cost estimate from a different garage? I have just had a look at my local independent Fiat/Alfa Workshop they have fixed price service menus - I've selected two areas that you may need - it's important to note these prices include VAT:

Of course you need to add in tyres etc but on reflection your proposed costs seem on the high side?
Just noting you are "only" in Northampton, maybe a day out in Royston isn't completely absurd? I can certainly recommend them - I've used them for both Fiat and originally, a long line of Alfa's.

 

[AndyRKett]

2018 Fiat Panda 1.2 Petrol with 29k miles. I have had this car from new.

Front Discs and Pads

Not impossible they need replacing but I would be very supprised. really discs rarely need replacing at this mileage but as @bugsymike has said you'd need to see it to know. I do know however discs and pads is a very easy way for a garage to pad out their bottom line. Easy to replace and any comment of anything wrong with the brakes tends to get people panicked.
The question to ask is would it fail the MOT if they were not done. If the answer is no, then you'll have plenty of time to get someone else to look at it.

2 x rear shocks

For what reason do they need replacing? again these are cheap and easy to replace, only two bolts but if its "oil misting" then at worst its an MOT advisory. If the car is bouncing around all over the road then yeah they probably need doing.
Again is it an MOT failure or just an advisory.

4 x tyres

The legal limit is 1.6 mm across the center three quarters of the tire throughout the entire circumference of the wheel. So if the inner edge of the tire is more worn as long as it doesn't wear the tread below 1.8 mm an 1/8 of the way into the tread it is still legal. if its not an MOT failure, then it gives you time to go and get some cheaper tires from somewhere like black circles. The problem with garages like this changing tires is you don't often get much of a choice of tire or how much you want to spend, they just tell you the price they want you to pay for the 4 tires they happen to have on the shelf.

Brake Fluid
Coolant change

Brake fluid absorbs water and gets spongy if you don't have spongey brakes it probably doesn't need doing. something else that can be skipped if budgets cannot stretch and get it done next time around, or at some other point during the year.
Same with coolant, you can open the bonnet and look at the colour yourself. If its a nice pink or blue colour not super dirty or cloudy then you can probably leave it, Its not going to hurt anything. But...

Cam Belt & Water pump

If the water pump is being replaced then it makes sense to change the water(coolant) at the same time.
If the service interval for you car really does state 75k miles or 5 years then you really should get the cambelt done, If you are getting the cam belt done on any engine where the cambelt powers the water pump, which is most engines, then you should change the water pump as well. Many cars have ended up in the scrapyard with a completely destroyed engine because someone swapped the cambelt but didn't change the water pump, the water pump seizes and snaps the new cambelt causing catastrophic engine damage. OK so its a 2018 car probably won't be scrap if that happend but the repair bill can be enormous

So brakes, brake fluid, shocks and tires may all be advisories and not need changing for the MOT if they don't need doing for the MOT then they are "Safe" and you can always budget to get them done later in the year if needed.

Cambelt and water pump are maybe a must and if doing the water pump might as well do the coolant.

What you need to know is why they need changing and would they Fail the MOT without

 

[koalar]

water pumps just done with a cam belt as it driven by the belt.

Cam belt is been changed at around 4 years

Service interval is 8

No where near the milage either

Either they are taking the Micky or I am missing something ?



If the water pump has gone the OP would have mentioned constant topping up

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi @chrisgg and welcome

I have a 2013 panda.. similar mileage..and the front discs LOOK horrible

But they are still OK.. they have a limit of WEAR.. the metal wearing away from Breaking friction.. there is a Minimum thickness value..I am not near that

My MOTs say 'Deteriorated..but not effecting function'...or similar

Your last MOT probably similar

( you can check on DVLA site if you cannot find the paperwork)


Your last garage had probably sussed out you were a low mileage sensible driver..


Latest one assumes the worse...
Worst case scenario of you will have finished off your 30% remaing brakes and 20% remaining tyre tread in 3 months... So summise it all needs changing now


If you drive like me.. that day could be in 2016

 

[varesecrazy]

Cambelt : timing belt is a tough call.

LOTS of lightly stressed 'cheap' cars do double the stated mileage without issue

MANY manufacturers have to Massively reduce their Belt change intervals after premature failures 72k down to 36 being a prime example...

BUT.. they usually amend Distance .. not Age


I have a 2018 fiat with that 1242cc FIRE motor

Its done @50k.. and I plan to get the Belts and Waterpump swapped at its '5 years in service' date in the summer

If I keep the car until 2018.. it will need doing at some point ;-)

 

[chrisgg]

Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. I really didn't expect much response so am blown away by all the advice.
The cam belt and pump and coolant sounds like a must do for peace of mind. Other than that I think I will ask for the minimum to be done for an mot pass and get looked into in the coming months.
There is another issue that has to be fixed for an mot pass whereby every so often the yellow engine warning light keeps coming on. This came on when it was tested so become a fail. This has been happening for the last couple of years. It intermittently comes on and beeps at me. After a few key start and stops it goes out with no warnings and can be fine for weeks or a few days. It seems worse in the winter/wet/damp times of the year.
My old garage plugged it in and said it was probably a faulty sensor. A friend of mine with some car knowledge also said it didn't sound serious. Rightly or wrongfully I've ignored it. The new garage is going to get an auto electrician to look at it on Monday as unfortunately it came on during the mot.
I'm really hoping it's not an expensive problem and understand intermittent problems are a challenge.
For info, mostly it's just the yellow warning light which last about 5-10 key off and on again. Occasionally, the yellow "esc" yellow light also comes on and it says hill holder unavailable. This usually goes off after a couple of key off and on actions.
Just annoying this has also stuffed the mot.
You've all been really helpful and I didn't want to join a forum and bombard with questions. If anyone has any advice or comments on this or would be appreciated.
Interestingly, my daughter has a fiat 500 that has a similar problem which eventually the provider went away by itself

 

[Panda IIs]

Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. I really didn't expect much response so am blown away by all the advice.
The cam belt and pump and coolant sounds like a must do for peace of mind. Other than that I think I will ask for the minimum to be done for an mot pass and get looked into in the coming months.
There is another issue that has to be fixed for an mot pass whereby every so often the yellow engine warning light keeps coming on. This came on when it was tested so become a fail. This has been happening for the last couple of years. It intermittently comes on and beeps at me. After a few key start and stops it goes out with no warnings and can be fine for weeks or a few days. It seems worse in the winter/wet/damp times of the year.
My old garage plugged it in and said it was probably a faulty sensor. A friend of mine with some car knowledge also said it didn't sound serious. Rightly or wrongfully I've ignored it. The new garage is going to get an auto electrician to look at it on Monday as unfortunately it came on during the mot.
I'm really hoping it's not an expensive problem and understand intermittent problems are a challenge.
For info, mostly it's just the yellow warning light which last about 5-10 key off and on again. Occasionally, the yellow "esc" yellow light also comes on and it says hill holder unavailable. This usually goes off after a couple of key off and on actions.
Just annoying this has also stuffed the mot.
You've all been really helpful and I didn't want to join a forum and bombard with questions. If anyone has any advice or comments on this or would be appreciated.
Interestingly, my daughter has a fiat 500 that has a similar problem which eventually the provider went away by itself

You do mean the engine warning light and not the yellow triangle?

The yellow warning light (and associated ESC and hillhold warnings) probably point to low battery voltage. This jives with you noticing it more during cold and wet conditions (wipers etc) and the fact that you only do short distances - at 5 years old it could be that your battery is on its last legs, however, I would give it a nice long slow trickle charge - pretty sure that will ward off the yellow lights for a while. Of course it could be something else but that's where I would start.

There are numerous threads on here regarding warnings that are generally resolved with by addressing the battery (charging or replacement). Sensors seem to churn out spurious readings (or don't return a signal) when the volts are low.

 

[chrisgg]

Thank you for your advice. The warning is definately the engine warning and not a triangle. The esc yellow light is less frequent as said before. I will wait to hear what the garage says as the car is with them at the moment.
I really wished I had joined this forum before taking the car anywhere
Again, thank you all for such good points and advice