Technical Replacing Tipo Rear Subframe Rear Mountings

[yaztaz]

a 1994 1.4 tipo DGT well looked after but has seen a lot of wintertime commuting, thats my guess. only welding it has had is to the LH rear wheelarch forward baffle plate, failing mot at the time because seatbelt anchor a little way above that area. there may be more that would attract the attention of a welding-work seeking mot testing station, if you get my meaning, but its a pretty sound car overall. its been stored in the dry for the last 2 years while i get round to tidying it up to go back on the road. there is a problem though with the rear subframe mountings, caused by all the salt its seen perhaps, that isnt gonna be easy to fix im sure. the rear subframe front mountings seem fine but the rear pair are falling apart now that the thin steel that surrounds the rubber is rusting through. as i understand it you cant get replacement mountings (not normally anyway), only the subframe with the mountings fitted in the factory, nice.. so, i am here now in the hope that there are owners using this tipo forum who can explain how these mountings just maybe can be replaced in some way shape or form so i can get the erstwhile silver machine through another mot. i will find a way i am sure, after all the investment of 67.00gbp when bought on ebay 5 years ago must be recouped! its been on the road for less than 2 years in total during that time and is too good to scrap. i guess i have to regard it as a classic with it being 19 years old now, so if thats the case common sense doesnt have to apply.. also the more tipos that get scrapped the more reason to preserve this one. mileage just over 100,000, has good/nice brakes although steel pipes needed replacing when i first got it. engine very lively and smooth once i found the bad connection to the inlet manifold temp sensor. ill shut up now and hope for some replies before too long, fingers crossed

 

[bluejohn125]

Hi there,

Great to hear another Tipo has a sympathetic owner who is keen on keeping it on the road. Hopefully you will overcome the isues and keep it rolling for the public to appreciate... They manage to look small and compact now compared to overinflated, elevated 500s even...

Anyway as far as your issue goes, yes it's ridiculous that bushes should be part of a complete subframe and potentially result in good cars being scrapped... But there will be ways and means.

I've got a 95 Tipo and 01 Brava... the front subframes are the same and fortunately OK on both (I've been careful(. As for the rears, they MAY be the same, or perhaps just the bushes / mountings... Anyway I did see one supplier on Ebay that offered Brava / Bravo front and rear mountings, but I did not investigate further. I know that Puntos have a similar problem but a different mounting design... for those you can get a repair that fits over the original rather than being a straight swap.

Dig around the Marea and Bravo forums (maybe Multipla?0 and see what you can find... I seem to recall someone modifying a Vectra bush to do the job.

Once someone cracks this the solution can be documented and published...

Good luck... now get cracking!

 

[yaztaz]

Re: Replacing Tipo Rear Subframe Rear Mounting Bushes

thanks <|>bluejohn125<|> for your much needed support. i agree the tipo is a tidy looking car, not like the later bloated models. ive spent some time looking through the forums as you suggested, elsewhere too..
<<1>> i learn that tipo platform was important as it was used for other models incl brava, multipla, etc. also its use is not limited to just fiat either.. very satisfying to own such a versatile marque! pity the subframes and mounting bushes are not always as impressive as they might be.. the basic (bare) subframes then would seem to be the same (ie. excluding the other parts making up the subframe assembly), member <|>sediciRich<|> confirms this. but there are at least three different designs of rear mounting bushes used on the rear subframe amongst the tipo-platform family..
<<2>> i see multipla rear bushes on ebay seller >onlybushes< (portugal) and its evident from the tapered metal body of these that they are a press fit into the subframe (but from above!). i now discover there are tipo rear bushes from the same seller (fair bit higher price than multipla though), but its a complete mystery to me how they can be fitted as there is no metal outer part, just bare rubber, as far as i can see..
<<3>> i had the idea that tipo bushes were bonded into the subframe in the factory by some special process. is that not so? as for brava the picture for the rear bushes from the same seller is different again and fitment technique required is just as much a mystery as with the tipo ones..
<<4>> so, just what was involved when tipo and brava subframes were assembled in the factory? does anyone have pictures of tipo, bravo, multipla subframes with bushes removed and dimensions of the hole/socket this reveals? if the shape or dimensions of that hole/socket are different for tipo, brava, multipla then its not strictly true to say that the basic subframes are the same..
<<5>> but with their original bushes in place are the tipo, brava and multipla bare subframes totally interchangeable between tipo, brava and multipla floorpans? just got to get some forum input on all of these points and once things are clearer, as you say, 'there will be ways and means' to save many tipos and 'tipo-variants' from the crusher

 

[jonti]

Apologies if this does not help at all. I ordered this Bravo subframe for my Tipo and the garage who fitted for me didn't report any issues.

 

[stephen79]

I only spotted this thread now, and its a topic I'm interested in too as the rear subframe mounting bushes are shot on my 1992 Tipo 1.7D (along with nearly everything else on the car!). I see on eper the subframe is listed as one part number with no part numbers for the bushes! Hopefully I will be dropping out my subframe in the next few weeks and will get the chance to see what I can get to fit instead of the worn bushes. A question for jonti, do you know what year bravo the subframe you fitted to your tipo was? I only ask as I wonder do the later facelifted Bravo/Brava from 1999 to 2001 have a different subframe than the 1996 to 1999 type?

 

[stephen79]

Hopefully some photos of my tipo were attached!

 

[bluejohn125]

It's Montalbano's Tipo!!

Looks really nice, needs to be kept running.

I would fully expect all Brava / Bravo subframes to fit the Tipo based on Jonti's experience... logically all the fitting points on the essentially common body would be the same even if they did modify the mounting bush designs.

I suppose ideally one would just replace the necessary bits on your original subframe, but if you can replace the whole thing with a newer, younger version having a possibly better design and you can rustproof it or lubricate it or whatever, then that's just as valid and any labour costs will probably be about the same. Plus there are other bushes and bearings you can do at the same time, that are available readily.

Incidentally, what is the actual cause of failure of these bushes / mountings - is it rust or perishing of the rubber bits?

 

[stephen79]

Hmm, the photos are deceiving, its far from nice! quite rusty in places, I must take some more photos. the passenger side rear door is rotten and there are plenty of patches of rust throughout the car. Still its a rare survivor over here. The subframe bushes on mine are perished and swollen, they look terrible, having said that the last time I drove it there was not a rattle out of it! Hopefully I will get some time to drop it out for further inspection.

 

[jonti]

Stephen. In answer to your question I asked for the newest bravo/a they had, assuming it would be in best condition. My old subframe was rusted to bits and the bump stops had collapsed. As bluejohn said and if you look on eper it seems to be the same part. The Bravo one I got was in much better condition and I lashed waxoyl and zinc paint all over it.

 

[stephen79]

Thanks for the reply jonti, I will see if I can locate a brava/o rear subframe from a scrapyard here in Ireland. As I said before hopefully I will get the old subframe out in the next few weeks.

 

[yaztaz]

thanks very much <<jonti>> for the pic and <<stephen79>> great to hear from someone else with similar problem. if you dont find a good scrapyard brava answer to it, or dont fancy all the changeover work involved then stick with us on this as it is hoped there will be a way found to get tipo mot-worthy again without major surgery.. so, continuing with my list of points arising ->
<<6>> on brava rear subframe continuity; i think they are the same throughout entire production. i can find only one brava/bravo rear subframe rear mounting bush available and this is said to cover all years. because of the oddly worded titles used by two uk based ebay sellers this rear bush does not come up when searching for >brava rear subframe< on ebay uk. it was only after looking at other forums, thanks to <<bluejohn125>> steering me, that i found a part number to search for which is included in titles and/or description on ebay uk listings. a word of warning though; be wary of equivalent part numbers stated on various web pages from other manufacturers as none of them so far have turned out to actually be subframe bushes! the number that can be relied on for the rear subframe rear mounting bush is the ''First Line'' branded FSM2029. its available post free on ebay uk at a little over 21.00gbp. evidently it fits tipo, brava and multipla (and all other usual suspects too probably..)
<<7>> <<bluejohn125>> you asked what actually goes wrong with tipo rear subframe rear bushes, well on my silver machine the part of the bush body that looks like a collar (underside of subframe) has rusted away, but as far as i know the mountings are still doing their job ok. there seems to be good solid rubber in the section above which is inside the steel body of the upper part of the bush. when last on the road 2 years ago the only banging i had which sounded like it might be coming from the back end was actually from the front anti-roll bar links (cured after replacing links). <<stephen79>> is your tipo banging or making any other noises that might be coming from the rear subframe particularly when driving over rough roads? does my description of what my bushes look like match with what yours look like?
<<8>> rear subframe banging against the body above is not uncommon apparently with multipla, which would seem to also use the same bare(without bushes i mean) tipo rear subframe, but apparently only affects the front pair of bushes. i read that there is some design difference between tipo and multipla rear subframe front bushes but the socket/hole they fit into in the bare subframe is the same size. if anyone disagrees with my understanding on any of that please provide relevant dimensions for both multipla and tipo if you can.
<<9>> i have read more than once that tipo aftermarket rear subframe front bushes can be used in the same position for multipla despite the bush design difference but not sure what if any modification is required. the ''First Line'' branded part number for tipo rear subframe front bush is FSM2028.
<<10>> although brava apparently will also accomodate FSM2028, i learn that brava has its own aftermarket bush for the rear subframe front position which is FSM2026. the difference is said to be that it is a 'softer ride' design. hmmm.. is it weaker than the tipo one therefore? <<blue john125>> you have a tipo and a brava, what do you think about that?
<<11>> if i remember correctly from reading tipo forum threads i think it is correct to say that the tipo doesnt usually suffer from any problems with the rear subframe front bushes. can anyone confirm one way or the other on that?
... i shut up for a few days now while i read some more. also must try and find time to earn a living too

 

[stephen79]

Yaztaz, my tipo was making no banging or knocking noises at all on the road but its about 10 months since I drove it. Your description of the mounting bushes do match mine, although mine are all swollen and perished. I will try and take photos in the next day or two.

 

[lordsnowy]

Stephen 79, nice to hear of another Tipo in ireland, i was told mine was the only one left on the roads here. I use mine everyday, over 200k miles now and have had it since new, 1994.

I have been noticing a knocking noise from the back, just the odd time, i was putting it down to the exhust rubbers not been as tight as they get old and letting the exhust hit the bumper. I have noticed the subframe mounts are looking the worst for wear, I seem to be picking up a lot more road noise. Also the salt is starting to effect the body were the subframe meets, so I will be removing the subframe to prevent rust getting any worst, no welding needed at the moment. So i was hoping to replace the rubbers at that stage, i will be checking the updates to this topic more regularly now.

 

[stephen79]

some pics of my rather poor rear subframe front mounting bushes! As you can see in the left pic the bush has started to split and swell out. This is the drivers side bush. Could be a while before I get time to drop out the complete subframe.

 

[yaztaz]

Re: Replacing Tipo RSF Rear Mounting Bushes

thanks for pics <<stephen79>>, what is it that you think is the problem with your rear subframe (RSF) front mounting bushes? bad as yours might look my guess is that theyre still ok. you did say there was no banging heard from the back end. are you worried they will fail the test due only to rusty appearance? what is the annual test called in ireland, not MOT test as in UK is it? is it a very strict test? after 200,000 miles its not gonna look great under there rust-wise, but the rubber doesnt look at all perished to me.. continuing with my list of hopefully interesting points including re your tipo >>
<<12>> assuming its correct that multipla uses same bare RSF as tipo:- on the multipla forum theres a thread with pictures showing what the RSF front mounts look like when they go bad. apparently the crucial test (with multipla at least) is to jack up the body so weight is off the RSF to see if it drops by maybe 15mm or so. <<stephen79>> did you say you thought your RSF rear pair looked perished? RSF fronts are a 'squat' design but the rears extend downwards more and this part is enclosed in a steel collar with apertures in it, through which you can see rubber. maybe thats giving the illusion that yours are perished and falling apart?
<<13>> on my tipo the RSF rear bush lower part is rusted through but as far as i know the rest of the rubber bush above where the subframe encloses it is still good. visually though (if for no other reason) my RSF rears i think must be an MOT failure.
<<14>> if for my RSF rear bushes the lower part can be enclosed with something like the 'overlap bushes' (caps) available for punto mk1 then they should pass the MOT. i think though the reason why nothing like that seems to be available for tipo/brava is due to the slightly different form of the bush. but, perhaps there is a way to make something like that for tipo/brava although it might involve doing some minor mods to the lower part of the old bush before an 'overlap bush' could fit over.
<<15>> otherwise doing things the conventional way theres a lot of work involved (a pig of a job it is said) in getting the RSF off, pressing old bushes out and pressing new ones in, or very expensive if a garage does it. so, ok maybe if you have plenty of time and determination, or plenty of money.. so, got to explore the easiest options first, me thinks..
<<16>> i did read of one possible easier way though if mounting bushes do have to be renewed because overlap bushes are not going to work out; there are reports of people on multipla and punto forums having replaced their bushes without having to drop the RSF completely off the car.. the punto RSF is not the same as tipo of course but the mounting bushes press in from above just the same.. i will try to find out more on all of the above before coming back again to share ideas

 

[stephen79]

Re: Replacing Tipo RSF Rear Mounting Bushes

The equivalent of the MOT in Ireland is the NCT (national car test) and they are quite strict, especially on cars over 10 years old. I don't think my rear subframe bushes would pass as if you look closely at the photo I posted on the left you can visibly see the bush starting to split in the middle, I doubt that would get through the test. The subframe itself could be rotten as it looks terrible. Although my Fathers Brava passed the other day with flying colours and I thought the subframe looked rusty on it, more surface rust though. I have to find the time to drop the subframe yet. Its a bit involved taking it down as the fuel tank has to be dropped but it seems a straightforward enough job. I can decide when its dropped and steam cleaned whether its repairable or not. Although as you say yaztaz its the actual replacement of the bushes thats the fun job as opposed to the dropping out of the frame.. I am also posting a photo of the rear passenger side subframe mounting.

 

[bluejohn125]

Yaztaz, what the heck is wrong with the formatting {9{_< > on your posts?

Can't you check with Preview before posting<hjdjuhdhd>, they are really hard to read..

 

[yaztaz]

Re: Formatting

hello <<bluejohn125>> sorry you are having problems, are you dyslexic or something maybe? looks great on preview to me and as far as i know no one else is having difficulty are you objecting to size 3 instead of size 2 verdana? please be specific and i will comply with any reasonable request. btw, did you catch that question i asked you a little way back? it was at point number 10, its easy to find, just follow the numbers in the thread and look for <<10>> thanks though for getting me going in the right direction with your first reply in this thread. i am still grafting away on the research that your knowledge of other forum threads, etc, has made possible thanks for your reply <<stephen79>> will be back to discuss just as soon as i get another spare moment..

 

[bluejohn125]

I've tried to take a few photos of the Tipo and Brava mountings.. I'll post them when I've checked them.

Meanwhile this is a thread from the Irish member who can probably give some useful input if you approach him ...

https://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors-non-fiat/319316-yet-another-406-a.html

Yaztaz I don't know if you are seeing your posts displayed the same as me and the other members, but you don't seem to use any punctuation, capitals, line feeds or anything that makes the posts easy to read and follow. The font seems very big and spindly....

Maybe it's a genuine technical issue, or just artistic differences?

 

[SFB]

Re: Formatting

hello <<bluejohn125>> sorry you are having problems, are you dyslexic or something maybe?

That was an unnecessary comment.

looks great on preview to me and as far as i know no one else is having difficulty

Your posts are a struggle to read.

are you objecting to size 3 instead of size 2 verdana? please be specific and i will comply with any reasonable request. btw, did you catch that question i asked you a little way back? it was at point number 10, its easy to find, just follow the numbers in the thread and look for <<10>> thanks though for getting me going in the right direction with your first reply in this thread. i am still grafting away on the research that your knowledge of other forum threads, etc, has made possible thanks for your reply <<stephen79>> will be back to discuss just as soon as i get another spare moment..

Do other people's posts look the same as your own?
If not, that's what bluejohn is talking about.