Tuning remap and bravo turbo HELP

[punto_matt]

No you dont have to get a bravo turbo. The standard turbo is restricted from fiat hence why you only get small gains. They are telling you sh*t about what the DV is achieving yes and i dont know how they have managed to get peak gains of 200bhp from it which is why i wouldnt use them personally.

 

[trich926]

did he give you any graphs ?
upload them, if your getting 200bhp then back down to 130 then hes done something not quite right.

Does he have dark glasses and a dog ?

 

[punto_matt]

Thats what it should look like on standard turbo.

 

[vessey19]

will scan and upload the graph tomorrow and you can all have a laugh and help me in my situation beacuse my graph is no where near like that i will look forward to the feedback tomorrow

 

[Captain Mike]

Can we look forward to some grammar wit that post as well?

 

[dave]

Can we look forward to some grammar wit that post as well?

this is a car forum, not skule

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[RTech]

Thats what it should look like on standard turbo.

20BHP max on the peak is about right for a 120 T-jet with around 40bhp 40lbft in the midrange, then the more midrange you aim from the peak power will suffer.

Is it me or is this dyno graph wrong? basic maths say the hp and torque line should cross at 5252rpm when using the same axis scale hp/lbft or kw/nm? I reading it wrong? lol

And to have 30lbft gains at 1500rpm look suspect?

I run cars with Motronic me7.XX ecus and no matter what conditons, air intake temps, atmospheric pressure, humidity the cars always will make near enough stock quoted power within 5bhp+/- max. So to get 139bhp from a stock mapped ME7 ecu is not going to happed fully stop, Bosch have spent millions on the development of load based ecus, making sure car make quoted map no more no less not matter what conditions, even running eobd fault issues.

I have ran well over 3000 cars with Me7.XX ecus on rolling road over the last 8 years and never seen one make close to 20bhp over spec. Even with bolt on tuning mods you cannot up the power, because its all MAF v rpm v temp related. I would say the 122bhp from the DD rolling road is about spot on and is what I am used to seeing.

Then we move on to tuned engines, 95% of the quoted peak BHP output from tuners never make what they say on a rolling road. If your getting a huge 100nm+ 60bhp+ in the midrange and not huge gains on the peak power this is telling me that there is a hardware restriction, exhaust, turbo volumetric efficiencys ect.. You can aim for higer peak BHP but at a compromise to the midrange power band, you will gain the pub talk bhp but the car will be slower. I would be over the moon with 100+nm & 60bhp across the midrange if the lambda, ignition and boost is safe, I would be worried about 190bhp peak as the egts involved would really be causing engine stress.

The to the DV issues, fitted wrong or fitted with the wrong spring they will cause issuses with the power band. I see the old plastic Bosch DVs bleed boost of back into the intake and cause 20+bhp losses. Atmos dump vales will mess up the ADD MULT fuel trims and effect the injection time causing loss of power.


Then to the graph above 13bhp peak gain from a remap sounds pants and if we are working from 120bhp that 143bhp peak, but in the real world the remap seems really good, on the road I would imagine the car is very quick and would keep up with most cars because of broad torque band with close on 40lbft extra power.
IMO just an extra 4bhp across the midrange curve is 100 times better than having 15bhp on the peak power.



Nick

 

[punto_matt]

Maybe looks wrong i dont really care. Important thing to me is how is drives not what a bit of paper says. Majority of Tjets have rolling roaded at 140ish standard on many different rolling roads. Talk was that Fiat gave the official figure lower so that they didnt put people off the abarths at 155bhp.

 

[RTech]

weight reduction

Good one Dave..lol


Dump valves = less turbo lag / less turbo stall / faster take up spooling

Balnked return and dump valve = turbo stalling / turbo lag /slower uptake / poor fuel trims.

Dump valve working wrong = waste gate chatter sound / uneven turbo compressor spool down / bleeding boost / less power / poor fuel trims

And just to add the reply to the first post, if your currrent turbo setup is maxed out due the VE issues and you already have a full exhaust system with a de or 200 cell sports cat, induction kit ect then the only way for more peak power is to fit a turbo with greater VE at the top end. You need to be reading up on google about turbos and compressor maps, work out your stroke and displacment and you will get an idea of what a bigger turbo will do, The you need to work out the flow rate of the fuel system at 3bar then scale to 4bar to make sure you have enough fuel on tap.

Tuning is maths there are laws to every aspect, you just need to spend many hours reading books. I have spent 1000s of hours over the last 16 years of my life reading books and testing.

Nick

 

[BGreatholder]

is the bravo turbo the same as the std Abarth turbo?

If so im guessing the end results would be something along the lines of these (probably more):

 

[punto_matt]

Yeah its the same turbo.

 

[punto_matt]

Nick,

Do you think you would be able to improve on my map much? Since that was done i have added FMIC and a 2.5" cat back exhaust. When i RR'ed it after these mods its gained no peak but extended peak power further through the rev range.

 

[RTech]

Maybe looks wrong i dont really care. Important thing to me is how is drives not what a bit of paper says. Majority of Tjets have rolling roaded at 140ish standard on many different rolling roads. Talk was that Fiat gave the official figure lower so that they didnt put people off the abarths at 155bhp.

"Important thing to me is how is drives not what a bit of paper says"

Thats the best comment ever IMO, too many stuck up on PEAK pub tallk..lol

I have spent the last 6 year in the internet trying to get that point across.. On some forums its like..:bang: " No your 1.1 Saxo aint going to get 14bhp from a K&N air filter and a Ripspeed sticker added to the shopping list on the blooming doors" :slayer:

Maybe graph is wrong, but it still shows the nice midrange gains and peak power, which gives me an idea how nice your car feels after the remap.

Nick

 

[RTech]

Nick,

Do you think you would be able to improve on my map much? Since that was done i have added FMIC and a 2.5" cat back exhaust. When i RR'ed it after these mods its gained no peak but extended peak power further through the rev range.

The only way to find out if there is more gain to be had is to give the car a good logging session, to see if the cars lambda, boost and timing is safe with its current state of tune. Then find out how close they are to the hardware limits of the injection flow rate and boost, and if there is a big enough window we can add more.

IMO the Abarth turbo will see 200bhp/200lbft at a push with all the correct tuning mods and remap, and around 180bhp on a stock exhaust. I have been luck and managed to get one of the first Punto Abarths in the UK to remap and test..lol Still going strong with 180bhp, but my local dealer has had one back in with less than 1000miles on the clock with a melted pistons and a stuffed engine and turbo, after another tuner was requesting engine load which needed 30psi of boost to meet the requested load, but without any lambda changes. It cost the customer over £7000 to have a new engine fitted and £700 for new ecu. He is still trying to taking his tuner to court.

Nick

 

[punto_matt]

And how much would that cost me to find out? Im in south notts just off the A46 so hinckley isnt far from me.

 

[RTech]

And how much would that cost me to find out? Im in south notts just off the A46 so hinckley isnt far from me.

Best bet is to pop over to us and we will have a cuppa coffe and stick the car on the rolling road and see what going on, then we can see what there is to play with if any. The easy way to find out is to log the boost control duty cycle % and throttle plate %. If these are already 90%-100% then there aint much window.

Just bring some hobnobs with you..

Nick

 

[punto_matt]

Will try and pop down soon as i would like a little bit more out of it if possible but obviously i dont want to spend the money or waste someones time trying to get more if it aint gonna happen.

 

[dave]

i thought the lines only cross if both showing at wheels

 

[BGreatholder]

The only way to find out if there is more gain to be had is to give the car a good logging session, to see if the cars lambda, boost and timing is safe with its current state of tune. Then find out how close they are to the hardware limits of the injection flow rate and boost, and if there is a big enough window we can add more.

IMO the Abarth turbo will see 200bhp/200lbft at a push with all the correct tuning mods and remap, and around 180bhp on a stock exhaust. I have been luck and managed to get one of the first Punto Abarths in the UK to remap and test..lol Still going strong with 180bhp, but my local dealer has had one back in with less than 1000miles on the clock with a melted pistons and a stuffed engine and turbo, after another tuner was requesting engine load which needed 30psi of boost to meet the requested load, but without any lambda changes. It cost the customer over £7000 to have a new engine fitted and £700 for new ecu. He is still trying to taking his tuner to court.

Nick

I know every rolling road is different etc etc, but the above graph my my abarth with a tuning box + panel filter..... I would imagine a remap would be able to get a little more out of the car than a tuning box due to more control over variables?

Im hoping for around 190 bhp with the exhaust on now...

 

[sptuning]

I know every rolling road is different etc etc, but the above graph my my abarth with a tuning box + panel filter..... I would imagine a remap would be able to get a little more out of the car than a tuning box due to more control over variables?

Im hoping for around 190 bhp with the exhaust on now...

I'll try and dig out vesseys power runs and post them, to clear up the confusion.
It was pulling extra 55-60hp and 85-90ft/lb @3000rpmish.
I agree dump valves don't give more peak hp but they can improve extra low down power. Removing the valve on this car resulted in a loss of 25ft/lb torque and 15-20hp @3000.
We've also mapped a 120ps fitted with arbarth turbo, it made 196hp...peak.
As far as I'm aware cars with the 130,150,155ps engines are all fitted the same turbo charger, the 120ps model is different;-)


J.