Reading Diagnostic Fault codes.

[Sid and coke]

Is it possible to this from a home DIY point of view.

A little story:
I used to love the way my 1999 Fiat Brava 100sx drove. OK it's not the most sporty drive in the world but it was an improvement over the 1.4 Brava and the 1.2 Punto that it replaced. I think it has quite a nice peppy and free revving engine, considering it is only a cheap family hatch. I had the local Fiat main dealer change the Timing belt and Tensioner mechanism ( i paid for belt they paid for tensioner and labour !!), this was due to very strange noises coming from tensioner and visibly premature wear indications- beware ! this was done with 35K on the clock. Ever since then it has driven like a nail. I have had it back upto the dealers on numerous occasions , shortly after the belt change, but at that stage (15K ago) the faults where intermittent , and typically never showed up when the mechanic drove the car on a test run- typical !!
The driving faults have been getting steadily worse over the last year, due to the fact thet this is my wifes car , i don't drive it that oftewn these days.

I recently bought an old high milage Mazda 626 2 litre 16v... to get my to work and back ( 10 miles)and take the dog down the beach for his walk every day ( 5 miles). I cannot get over just how much better the 10 year old 116K Mazda drives compared to my 4 year old 50K Fiat, the Fiat is a total pile of crap ! However i should add , it didn't used to be, So my question is ; What do you think are prime candidates to look into for the poor running of the fiat. It has been regularly serviced all its life, first 2 with fiat the next 2 via the AA service centres at Halfords. Don't knock Halfords btw , they seem to do a good job. Everything that is supposed to get changed or looked at has been, at the specified intervals. I use Castrol Magnatec Oil or Fiat oil depending where the car is serviced.

Any help in finding the cause of my low speed stalling would be greatfully appreciated, if i can erase the fault codes and then read any recurring ones then that would be great.

 

[Sid and coke]

Forgot to add..

The reason that I ask about the fault codes is that they are rally easy to read on the Mazda, just by using a jumper wire and a 12v LED. I wondered if the Fiat is the same and also whether there is an explaination or table anywhere on the www showing what the fault codes mean, again the Mazda is very good in this respect.
Cheers.

 

[Tom]

Re: Forgot to add..

As I said in the other thread, you cannot read the fiat codes without the fiat diagnostic machine. European and jap car makers have very different ideas on ECUs and most europeans cars have to be read with a specific bit of kit. Sorry. I wish all cars were like jap cars, life would be easier.

Also the bad running on the 1.6 is either a damaged cam or crank sensor (does the injector light ever come on while driving?) or more likely they put the cam belt on 1 tooth out. Both have happened to other people on this forum.

 

[Sid and coke]

Re: Re: Forgot to add..

Thanks for the input Tom, it is appreciated.
I figured that the Fault code reading might need some money throwing at it- bugger !
The news about the Cam belt tooth is a bit more worrying, I've done a Compression test on the Mazda today, i suppose i should have done the Fiat at the same time. When you said damaged cam or crank sensor did you mean a damaged cam sensor and/or a damaged crank sensor or did you actually mean a damaged cam (shaft)(not trying to be awkward btw). i appreciate any help or info i can get , especially if i have to go tearing up to Arnold Clarks in a rage !

I'm regetting not being more stroppy and forcefull with the dealers when i first got the car back. As i said though it is really my wifes drive and she didn't tell me how bad it had got ! Hopefully if anything it will be a sensor, I'd rather have a sensor getting progressively worse than a mechanical problem get worse, I can do with out a set of burnt out valves or seats.
I'll pop the side covers over the weekend and have a look. Are the sensors easy to see ?

 

[Tom]

Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

About 3k will get you a Fiat/Alfa code reader.

What has happened is in the rush to fit the cambelt the lazy gorilla has not bothered to use the cam locking blocks and has just hoped that it all lines up so its always possible (as someone else proved) that one of your cams is not at the correct timing. Its not a damaged belt, pulley, cam or anything, they just put it back together wrong.

As for the sensors, one is hidden behind one of the cam pulleys and the other is down the side of the engine by the crank end pulley. For now I'd put money on one of the cams being set wrongly as a duff sensor should light the warning light on the dash.

Take it back to Fiat and get them to double check the cam timing. The prob with the 1.6 is there are alot of things to take off before you can get to the cam covers which is why they probably didn't bother to lock them properly.

It won't have done any damage.

 

[Sid and coke]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

From another thread:
"Does the injection light come on at all while driving?"

No. However for the very first time today, i noticed that as the engine stumbled/almost stalled, (I just managed to dip the clutch and catch it), and the red Injector light did flash on for less than a second, it was the first time I'd ever nticed it , but it might have been because the engine nearly stalled.

"Take it back to Fiat and get them to double check the cam timing. The prob with the 1.6 is there are alot of things to take off before you can get to the cam covers which is why they probably didn't bother to lock them properly."

The side covers are a right pain, I took the top one off when I originally took the car up to Fiat to check out the strange noises.

"It won't have done any damage."

Hope not.

I'll post back any findings, just for the archive.

 

[Sid and coke]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

I did a compression check this afternoon. The readings seemed a little high, maybe my Gunsons guage reads a little high though, it shouldn't though, as it's only about a month old . The readings where 1= 250psi, 2= 250psi, 3= 225+psi, 4= 235psi.

I also popped the cam cover off for a look-see at the camshaft timing marks. I didn't take it completely off as the extra long bolt behind the alternator pulley is a swine. They didn't seem to have the same inlet and exhaust arrows that other DOHC cars i have dealt with before have. There did seem to be a couple of green painted marks, i presume these are important ?
I've lost my Haynes 'book of lies' and so had to order another one, when it arrives I'll have a deeper look into all of this, for now I've put the cover back on until i've got all the proper info and have a better look in a few days.
We have a calibrated high pressure Nitrogen rig at work , so i can x-ref and pressure check my Gunsons guage against a known accurate one in the meantime.

 

[Tom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

Those figures are about right, mine were 206, 206, 205, 206 but that was dry (car had been standing overnight) and 60k miles.

There are NO markings on the pulleys, what you have to do is take the cam covers (not the cam belt covers) off the top of the engine (the two curved metal covers under the inlet manifold and use the special cam tool to align them. the reason most garages can't be arsed to do it properly is cos its a long and boring job taking the manifold off and then exposing the cams.

 

[Sid and coke]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

Tom,
apologies for dragging this one back up.
I bought a Haynes manual for my car and it would seem that there are alignment marks on the Cam shaft sprockets.
You have to remove the Plastic cover from inside the wheel arch so that you can see the 2 crank sprocket marks. You also need to remove the small rectangular cover plate that is fitted between the camshaft sprockets on the upper part of the timing belt cover.
I hand turned the engine (using a raised wheel- car in 5th gear) and aligned the Crank marks up so that one mark was aligned with the TDC mark on the engine, the other mark was lined up with the centre of the Crank position sensor. The piston was confirmed to be at TDC with a probe down the Spark plug hole. In this position, the painted mark on the Exhaust valve cam sprocket lines up with the steeply angled alignment line which is moulded into the timing belt cover, under the little cover plate. The other painted mark on the Inlet valve cam sprocket, should also be in view, but it isn't until I move the engine '2 teeth' ! Unless i'm doing something fundamentaly stupid i would say that my Cam shafts have been set not one , but 2 teeth, out of alignment. The Inlet valve cam sprocket being the one that is incorrectly set.
Pretty pissed off at the momentand raring for a row first thing tomorrow morning.

I've taken some pictures and posted them here: http://imageevent.com/sidandcoke/carthings

 

[Tom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to add..

Oh dear..... does sorta fit the description of the problem. Its not the first time its happened. 2 teeth is a right ****up. Any more and it could have been the end of the engine.

This is why I hate the garage approach of 'it starts therefore its fine'. I had a similar thing with a tuning shop in Southampton... 'yeah it drives fine'.. 'No it doesn't, I just drove down the road and its flat as hell and pinking!'... put old carb needles back in and took the guy for a spin 'oh yeah, thats much quicker, I should have test driven it first'... ****!

Just a note, the inlet cam is the one on the right. the 1.6 engine flows the other way to all the other Bravo/a engines. (inlet at front, exhaust at back)

 

[Sid and coke]

Well spotted

"Just a note, the inlet cam is the one on the right. the 1.6 engine flows the other way to all the other Bravo/a engines. (inlet at front, exhaust at back)"

Well spotted Tom, obviously that was a deliberate mistake, . I think I've obviously been spending too much time with my head under the bonnet of my Mazda 626 and got a bit confused. Better go and change my Photograph titles now I've gone public

 

[Tom]

Re: Well spotted



I think its silly the way most cars have the exhaust going under the engine... oh well.

Best of luck with the garage, please make careful notes of all the excuses they try and fob you off with so we can laugh.

 

[Sid and coke]

Re: Re: Well spotted

Got the car booked in for Thursday. They are going to check my valve timing, apparently the only way to do it properly is to remove the Ignition coil block and use some pegs/bolts or something to line up the Cams.
Quote from the mechanic:
"the painted marks on the cam shaft sprockets are there just as a rough guide" .
I'm not saying that they're not , but it will be very interesting to see. The 'Rough Guide' comment sounds like BS to me though. I think I might just give them a pop with a centre punch in case they accidentally get wiped of with some solvent or 'moved'.

Basically i told the manager :
"My car is running like sh!t. If you can fix it or find the cause , without altering the Engines 'Mechanical' Valve timing, then I'll be happy to pay up. I will be checking and looking very closely indeed to see to see exactly what you do to fix this problem though."

Cynic... moi ... never.