Technical Punto HGT won't start. Fuel pump? Also weird CODE warning light...

[D4nny8oy]

The wiring on a 155 (which is earlier that the 147) and on a Seicento (which is contemporary with the Mk2 Puntos) isn't particularly extreme. Folk who race Binis advise that the canbus carp accounts for 20kg of excess weight which can fairly easily be junked.

I was only clarifying when the CANBUS system became commonplace on Alfa's (your original post may have confused some into thinking no Alfas run CAN).

I can't see how one Body Computer weighing under a kilo and two thin wires running between all the ECU's on the car can add up to 20kg, unless you're talking about junking all the unnecessary ECU's and components for a simpler race-spec loom that only has to drive the engine and a few lights.

 

[fingers99]

Well, enough to have it road legal.

Cars just don't need the junk they run around with today (they'd be cheaper, lighter and burn less fuel). Like dual mass flywheels and manicats, canbus is evil!

 

[D4nny8oy]

True. Unfortunately the majority want their creature comforts, EPAS, Climate, Airbags, Elec seats with memory, etc, then there's the crap in the modern Alfas and their "keyless" system (where you have an ECU to read the transponder you use instead, which then talks to another ECU which operates the steering lock- all unnecessary gumpf). Without CAN, the weight of the loom would be doubled with all the data that needs to be shared.

Saying that, we're now getting a MoTeC Fusebox/PDM, touchscreen control panel and Dash display that only needs a single CAN connection to communicate all the info we need and save on wiring and weight. Awesome.

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Ok, so I phoned the guy who sold me the U480 diagnostic tool, and he said check all the fuses, as if one has blown it might be preventing the ECU from communicating. (He was very decent and offered a full refund if I couldn't get it to work. His eBay ID is autofixdirect and I'd recommend him on the basis of his helpfulness on the phone.)

The fuses seem ok, but I think there may be some relays missing. Any idea A: if there are any missing (or if the gaps are where relays would be for toys the car doesn't have), and B: which ones are missing. Could this be causing problems with the immobiliser / aerial etc...?

Now I've just gotta work out how to upload photos...

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Engine compartment fuse box, and box under facia in driver's footwell.

 

[D4nny8oy]

Not all the relay slots are used, even on the highest spec cars, as some will be for specific models (glowplug relay as an example). From the pictures, it looks about right- main engine ECU relays are T09 and T10, and they look like they're there.

When you tried the diagnostic tool, did you have no communication whatsoever? Or could you get into other systems?

If there was no communication at all, check the fuse for the EOBD socket (check your own manual to be sure, but the Forum copy shows it as being F39 10amp). However, if this has blown it should be apparent in the radio not working too.

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Not all the relay slots are used, even on the highest spec cars, as some will be for specific models (glowplug relay as an example). From the pictures, it looks about right- main engine ECU relays are T09 and T10, and they look like they're there.

When you tried the diagnostic tool, did you have no communication whatsoever? Or could you get into other systems?

If there was no communication at all, check the fuse for the EOBD socket (check your own manual to be sure, but the Forum copy shows it as being F39 10amp). However, if this has blown it should be apparent in the radio not working too.

Thanks again for your advice D4nny8oy. Pity, i was hoping it might just be as simple as getting a new relay

The diagnostic tool just says 'Linking Error!' and doesn't give me any functionality. It's a pretty basic machine (an orange Memoscan U480) but it's supposed to be compliant, being OBD-II. I've taken your advice and had a look at that fuse, but it's intact and the radio works (well the head unit does anyway). Unfortunately we don't have any other post-2001 vehicles for me to test the unit on.

I guess some more advanced equipment is needed, but I'd rather not have to get a mobile mechanic to come. This was supposed to be an affordable project..!

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

I guess it's fair to assume that whatever is stopping the car from talking to the code reader is also causing the starting problem.

Could one of the relays have blown? Can the relays be tested with basic equipment?

Sorry for the dumb questions! As i say, i'm new to electrics.

 

[fingers99]

If the relays are those in the main board, the qickest test would probably be by substitution (There should be a clue as to whether they're standard or not). Standard relay, about a fiver...........

 

[D4nny8oy]

Had a quick look at the specs of that machine, and if I'm right, it only communicates with and reads the Engine ECU. I don't think it would be able to communicate with the Body Computer or other ECU's directly?

If you want to switch relays around, only switch colour to colour (ie, red with red, black with black) to be safe. If you have the fusebox cover, it will tell you roughly what each one does.

 

[D4nny8oy]

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if the fault actually lies in the Engine ECU not communicating properly.

Have you checked every fuse that relates to the Engine ECU? (Not all may be applicable, but from what I can see, Fuses 11, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 31)

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if the fault actually lies in the Engine ECU not communicating properly.

Have you checked every fuse that relates to the Engine ECU? (Not all may be applicable, but from what I can see, Fuses 11, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 31)

That's what the guy who sold me the code reader thought.

I haven't checked every single fuse, but I checked all which seemed relevant. In the morning I'll double check all those you've listed.

I've just been out to switch the relays round, but no difference. (Bought myself a neat little torch in anticipation of more evenings with the Punto!)

Really appreciate this!

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if the fault actually lies in the Engine ECU not communicating properly.

Have you checked every fuse that relates to the Engine ECU? (Not all may be applicable, but from what I can see, Fuses 11, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 31)

Checked those fuses today, and they all look intact. :bang:

 

[PuntoHowTo]

When was the car Registered/manufactured? there is a distinct possibility that the ECU is just not compatible with the fault code reader. (pre 2001 built car)

secondly the problem is and always has been your keys not being coded to the car until you have addressed this issue there is little point in continuing to hunt for other possible causes.

way back somewhere in this thread you posted an eBay link to a full set ECU BSI Keys locks etc and i think this is the route you need to take making sure your car is as close a match to the donor car as is possible. failing that drag it on a low loader to fiat and pay them a fortune to put the coding issue right. only then will you be able to establish if there is anything else going on.

get a refund on your fault code reader for now its not working and you actually already know the problem.

you remind me of the people i deal with every day who get a poor diagnosis but refuse to believe it and start looking for other reasons for X,Y,Z.

 

[D4nny8oy]

When was the car Registered/manufactured? there is a distinct possibility that the ECU is just not compatible with the fault code reader. (pre 2001 built car)

secondly the problem is and always has been your keys not being coded to the car until you have addressed this issue there is little point in continuing to hunt for other possible causes.

way back somewhere in this thread you posted an eBay link to a full set ECU BSI Keys locks etc and i think this is the route you need to take making sure your car is as close a match to the donor car as is possible. failing that drag it on a low loader to fiat and pay them a fortune to put the coding issue right. only then will you be able to establish if there is anything else going on.

get a refund on your fault code reader for now its not working and you actually already know the problem.

you remind me of the people i deal with every day who get a poor diagnosis but refuse to believe it and start looking for other reasons for X,Y,Z.

Not wanting to start an arguement, but all mk2's (from 1999) are fully EOBD compliant, and the OP's car is a 2001 model anyway-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2001-FIAT...704f0a2b#ht_780wt_932&clk_rvr_id=308255353162

If it was merely an uncoded key issue, the OP should still be able to attempt to run through the emergency start-up procedure, but they can't- which suggests a possible Engine ECU communication issue (possibly linked to why the EOBD reader can't talk to it either) as the emergency start-up takes the Body Computer out of the equation.

Replacing everything could be an expensive route when the actual cause may just be something as simple as a missing earth connection at the ECU.



Unfortunately probably the quickest way to resolve this situation is to get the local Fiat Dealer to have a look. As long as you only authorise an hour's diagnosis, explain the situation and everything you've checked, and ensure it's the DET who performs the tests, they should find where the fault lies quickly.

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Andy, I appreciate your advice about the keys, and I have looked into this. But as Danny says, the failure of the emergency start-up procedure points the blame away from the keys. It also seems unlikely that someone would have changed the locks on all the doors but not coded the keys. I'm not ignoring this diagnosis because i don't like it - i just don't think it adds up.

Danny, I think I'll do that. There's an electrical specialist not far from me who will probably be cheaper. I might ask him. Will keep you posted.

By the way, you said earlier that you thought the head had been off. What was it that made you think this?

 

[D4nny8oy]

Andy, I appreciate your advice about the keys, and I have looked into this. But as Danny says, the failure of the emergency start-up procedure points the blame away from the keys. It also seems unlikely that someone would have changed the locks on all the doors but not coded the keys. I'm not ignoring this diagnosis because i don't like it - i just don't think it adds up.

Danny, I think I'll do that. There's an electrical specialist not far from me who will probably be cheaper. I might ask him. Will keep you posted.

By the way, you said earlier that you thought the head had been off. What was it that made you think this?

I can't be certain, but classic signs like jubilee clips on the coolant hoses and a missing exhaust manifold heatshield (which would only really be removed if unbolting the manifold from the head) suggest it's had work.

The HGT's aren't common for doing headgaskets unless it's been driven without coolant. Therefore the most likely cause would be a failed cambelt causing valve/piston contact, or engine seizure due to lack of oil.

If it cranks over well and sounds like it's got decent compression on all 4, I wouldn't worry too much right now.

I'm not saying the keycode issue is purely down to the Engine ECU, as when remote keys are stored, the remote code is saved at the same time- therefore if it was purely an Engine ECU fault, you'd expect the remote part to lock/unlock the doors still. However, I've known the Body Computers to 'forget' remote codes on occasion and need the keys re-coding, so it doesn't rule out a Body Computer fault entirely.

Does the Auto Electrician have a decent diagnostic machine capable of seeing what's happening with the code request and proper wiring diagrams? I don't doubt the guy, but if he's only going to poke around the fuses and relays, he might be cheaper than a Fiat specialist, but not worthwhile.

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Good news! I phoned up my local Fiat dealer (Desira), and they already had the vehicle on their records because the previous owner had taken it to them with this problem in November.

Apparently the problems started when the battery went dead. Desira couldn't get a fault code out of it either. They checked all the connections and their diagnosis was that it needs a new engine ECU. So i've just saved a £45 diagnosis fee

Desira would charge £573 incl VAT for a new one so i'm going second hand.

Three questions:
1) Do i need to go for a post-2001 ECU, so that it's OBD-II compliant like the rest of the car?
2) Would i need to replace anything alongside the engine ECU (immobiliser for example)?
3) Here's one on eBay but it doesn't say which ECU it is. Any idea?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_500wt_1287

 

[D4nny8oy]

Awesome- sometimes it does pay to run something by the Dealer. Sounds like the previous owner may have spiked the ECU while trying to jump-start it.

Now the bad news- any Engine ECU on it's own second hand will be no good, as it will have been coded to whatever car and Body Computer it came off, so will be useless without the BC, keys and locks. You'd also need to have everything Proxi aligned after to get it all communicating properly and avoid the annoying flashing mileage problem.

Have you tried one of the ECU repair companies which are often used by other members? They may be able to repair it, or exchange yours for another which has had the keycode wiped clean, effectively making it a fresh ECU.

http://www.ecutesting.com/ecu_testing__exchange___repair.html

 

[gimmiemorefiats]

Awesome- sometimes it does pay to run something by the Dealer. Sounds like the previous owner may have spiked the ECU while trying to jump-start it.

Now the bad news- any Engine ECU on it's own second hand will be no good, as it will have been coded to whatever car and Body Computer it came off, so will be useless without the BC, keys and locks. You'd also need to have everything Proxi aligned after to get it all communicating properly and avoid the annoying flashing mileage problem.

Have you tried one of the ECU repair companies which are often used by other members? They may be able to repair it, or exchange yours for another which has had the keycode wiped clean, effectively making it a fresh ECU.

http://www.ecutesting.com/ecu_testing__exchange___repair.html

Ah, thanks! Didn't realise i couldn't fit a second hand one, though when i think about it, i should have worked it out!

I'll have a look at an ECU repair company. I'm also looking at this, which would be less than half the price of the dealer, and comes with a 12 month warranty.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270896235...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1054