Tuning Punto 75 head in a cento?

[PAN366E]

I had my 1108cc MPI (micro ecu car) fitted with a modified P75 head, 1.6 Bravo 4 nozel injectors, 40mm TB, supersprint manifold, 200 cell sport cat, then 2 stainless boxes with 2.25inch pipework, GSR intake and cone filter..... that was remapped... so it is possible

 

[MazCinq]

Ok, to end this, I have just spoken to Red.Dot.Racing , number available here http://www.reddotracing.co.uk/ and they have just confirmed they can not communicate with the Micro ECU to Re-map it, END of this argument!!!

 

[MazCinq]

I had my 1108cc MPI (micro ecu car) fitted with a modified P75 head, 1.6 Bravo 4 nozel injectors, 40mm TB, supersprint manifold, 200 cell sport cat, then 2 stainless boxes with 2.25inch pipework, GSR intake and cone filter..... that was remapped... so it is possible

Nice list of mods, Who Re-Mapped it then???

 

[PAN366E]

 

[MazCinq]

That just proves it been on a rolling road for a dyno run.to prove it's power, like I said, I have just called red dot and welcome anyone to back me up here, they say they can NOT remap a Micro ECU because they can not communicate with it which is exactly what every tuner I have spoken to says.

 

[woj]

Ok, to end this, I have just spoken to Red.Dot.Racing , number available here http://www.reddotracing.co.uk/ and they have just confirmed they can not communicate with the Micro ECU to Re-map it, END of this argument!!!

There are two issues I think: (a) whether it can be remapped technically speaking, (b) whether tuning folks can do it in practice.

As for (a) the answer is yes (or, should be yes), if you look at Italian ECU forums you will find bin images read out from these ECUs (I have handful on my drive), and Galletto can write them. But note, I have not tried myself, I am yet to get one of those micro things to play with it (first have to finish playing with the macro one ). (b) it gets hairy in practice. First reading out the ECU contents means putting it into boot mode, and for micro ECU this is not an non-invasive procedure. And then, you have to know where the maps are and how to tune them, standard mapping programs provide possibilities close to nothing in this respect.

 

[MazCinq]

There are two issues I think: (a) whether it can be remapped technically speaking, (b) whether tuning folks can do it in practice.

As for (a) the answer is yes (or, should be yes), if you look at Italian ECU forums you will find bin images read out from these ECUs (I have handful on my drive), and Galletto can write them. But note, I have not tried myself, I am yet to get one of those micro things to play with it (first have to finish playing with the macro one ). (b) it gets hairy in practice. First reading out the ECU contents means putting it into boot mode, and for micro ECU this is not an non-invasive procedure. And then, you have to know where the maps are and how to tune them, standard mapping programs provide possibilities close to nothing in this respect.

Thank you, so it can be done but it's highly risky??

That will explain why professional tuners won't do them as it's their neck on the line if it goes wrong, so with your answer it's a yes, it can be done, but, No you won't find anyone that can do it.

 

[woj]

Thank you, so it can be done but it's highly risky??

That will explain why professional tuners won't do them as it's their neck on the line if it goes wrong, so with your answer it's a yes, it can be done, but, No you won't find anyone that can do it.

First of, my statement that it can be done is ~90% justfied, as I said, I am yet to try it myself. But reading what I have seen here and there makes me believe so.

It is risky for the ECU itself in the physical sense, if you insist on reading it out first, writing it back is rather easy and is done through the diagnostics interface. What I would do, I would just find a ready read bin file for a given ECU (these are not too difficult to find on various forums) by the numbers on the label and work with that. But of course, this is also a risk, if the version of the program is not spot on with the one in the ECU, writing it to the ECU is very likely to brick it, and here I guess I am one of the few people in the world that has software ready to recover from this (I had to do it for the macro ECU several times).

Eventually, maybe in a matter of weeks, I will get a micro ECU and play with it, I am curious about it for long enough for it to become a priority.

 

[MazCinq]

First of, my statement that it can be done is ~90% justfied, as I said, I am yet to try it myself. But reading what I have seen here and there makes me believe so.

It is risky for the ECU itself in the physical sense, if you insist on reading it out first, writing it back is rather easy and is done through the diagnostics interface. What I would do, I would just find a ready read bin file for a given ECU (these are not too difficult to find on various forums) by the numbers on the label and work with that. But of course, this is also a risk, if the version of the program is not spot on with the one in the ECU, writing it to the ECU is very likely to brick it, and here I guess I am one of the few people in the world that has software ready to recover from this (I had to do it for the macro ECU several times).

Eventually, maybe in a matter of weeks, I will get a micro ECU and play with it, I am curious about it for long enough for it to become a priority.

Well if you manage to do it, please let us know as I am sure there are lots of us on here that would be willing to send you money and ECU's to get done lol

 

[ycming]

So i just read back,

Where are the link(s) to company that can map the micro ECU? Cento186?

So Red dot can't do them ? They also promised they could do the 16v ecu, but that died of death, as they confirm they don;t have the hardware to do map them.

This would be great help.

Thanks
Ming

 

[cc1]

The ideal solution with any engine change is to use the OEM Ecu that is associated with that engine and injection system. Any major mods may bring on the injection light as the Ecu will see this as an issue. It can adjust to compensate but will still flag a problem due to deviation from the factory setup.


The Seicento Mpi still has the D4 connector but in a different place to a Cinq.
These are near impossible to obtain new as they are custom made for Fiat in a 24 pin version. I replaced mine with a newer one with less pins. These are hybrid types with 4 high current connectors on the outer pins. They can be de-pined to swop round if you know how.

 

[woj]

So Red dot can't do them ? They also promised they could do the 16v ecu, but that died of death, as they confirm they don;t have the hardware to do map them.

What, the IAW 18FD they cannot do? I slowly start to wonder what kind of tuning company that is...

Putting that remark aside, this ECU is technically not difficult to map (the same challenge as Cinq SPI ECU or Punto 75 ECU), however, the ECU is simply crap by design, and some problems it has cannot be "tuned out" to satisfaction

 

[blu73]

The Seicento Mpi still has the D4 connector but in a different place to a Cinq.

Fair engouh, i stand corrected - i was under the impression from what i had read that the sei mpi had one massive loom and no separation of engine and body loom... But I have never messed with one myself, only ever had cars based on cinqs and spi sei's myself..

 

[woj]

Fair engouh, i stand corrected - i was under the impression from what i had read that the sei mpi had one massive loom and no separation of engine and body loom... But I have never messed with one myself, only ever had cars based on cinqs and spi sei's myself..

I think you could actually be right, so don't give in so easily . What we are missing here is that the MPI Seis (both ECUs) have two plugs. One of these plugs has the engine bay loom attached to it and that has a sort of D4 connector. The other plug has - thats the question - I am not sure how to call this loom and I am not sure how it connected / interfaced to the rest of the car. In any case, all ignition feeds, immo lines, diagnostics lines, etc. go through it, many of them ending up in the cabin, and I have no clue how they are connected. I have the remains of the complete MPI loom in my basement, but pardon me, I will not go to check.

 

[cc1]

I have a Bin file from my MF59/M1 Ecu but can do nothing with it.


With reference to the D4 Mpi connecter:



May help some?

 

[woj]

I may have to stand corrected on the issue of the micro ECU mappability. I just got a bin file from 59FM1 and it looks nothing like the files from 59FM3. The latter are ST10 CPU based (and so are all the newer micro ECUs, like 5AF) and these are certainly doable. But M1 seems to be based on different architecture (my guess - similar to the one of 49F which uses undocumented CPU) and indeed might not be mappable. Will keep investigating.

 

[MazCinq]

My head hurts!!!!!


Simplify and reduce weight lol. Electronic fuel injection is expensive and complicated!!!

 

[NeilVox]

NeilVox as The Black Box mentioned, you will need to run either the standard plastic inlet as normal or modify the P75 inlet to work with the mpi ecu and then you can run the P75 38mm TB.

As Bimmermeister has proven on a highly tuned 1.2 8v the P75 inlet and a bored out 42mm TB are worth roughly 10bhp over the plastic inlet with 40mm TB. I felt a massive gain, especially at high revs with the P75 inlet. I did find, more a problem of running the 1242 rather than P75 bits, is that it runs badly when cold. A remap isn't necessary but would be beneficial in this respect.

Details here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors/317473-my-little-red-sei-26.html?p=3557144

That's awesome, thanks for the advice!

 

[NeilVox]

Give this guy a break, he is a new member, new blood to the cinquecento community in the UK. This isn't a growing community anymore as the number of cinq / sei is dieing. I much rather seeing an extra post about an age old problem than putting new people off.

I understand the annoyance of answering the same question over and over again, and when i couldn't be bother answering the same stuff again i just don't bother.

As for the P75 questions, not something i done, but from reading about your plans. I would get it running with the standard P75 ECU first. You don't need a piggy back right away, see how it runs first.

Also you may need to get that ECU virginsed or have the immob removed, you need to contact a member on here for @reddy4bed, he did my 16v ecu for around £45 i think.

Is all about learning before you throw loads of money at it !

Thanks
Ming

Thanks Ming, I really appreciate the comments and the help.

 

[NeilVox]

@NeilVox Ok, I have some advice for you and you may want to listen as I have an MPi Sei and it has a P75 engine fitted, in a fashion, Don't do it! just fit a 16v, with out going to great expense you wont get it running right. Please I am trying to give you solid advice here.


The issues come from the PowerSteering as it takes reading from the ECU for speed due to it being speed Variable, now with that in mind the only option you have is to piggy back the P75 ECU onto the Stock Micro ECU, or go full Stand-alone, if you run the P75 Piggy Back you will need to cut and splice the cars loom and a P75 loom together so it can be run, now if you run the 1.1 engine with the 75 head then you will only see a gain of about 5-10 bhp but you will need to modify the loom as none of the plugs for the Sei loom will reach to where the sensors are, if I remember right there is also an issue with the fuel lines too but I think that's easy fixed.


Now you could in theory run on the stock ECU with the 75 head and plastic inlet but again, this is the set-up I am currently running and it Dyno'd with the 1242 block at 69bhp, I had better out of my old 1.1spi.


Now with all this that you are looking at, look into a 16v conversion, its a lot easier and the gains are bigger.


If you are like me and want to stay 8v then I will actually help you how I can as I HAVE done this conversion but knowing it I really wouldn't recommend it and would strongly recommend a 16v conversion instead.

Thanks MarioCinq, I'm now thinking that this may be the best route - I know the 1242 16v Sporting engines have around 80 brake as standard, is there any generation of this engine that would be easier than another?