Technical Pump gone - extortionate quote to fix.

[Bugly]

My Multi cut out on me on a roundabout 2 days ago in France. The trip computer at the time came up with 'engine oil pressure low'. The oil level was checked recently and that was fine. When we moved it, there was water leaking from underneath, only a small amount. The car was serviced about 7 weeks ago and there were no apparent problems then.

I have european breakdown cover and called them out. They towed it to a Fiat dealer who have now said that the pump is gone and that they want 2116€ to fix it. This seems ridiculous to me.

Is this a realistic price? I am going to ask for a breakdown of exactly what is wrong and the parts and labour cost. Can anyone offer me any more advice please.

 

[Davren]

Is this a realistic price?

Hi, Welcome to the FF.

Which pump?

What vehicle? Year? Engine?

 

[Bugly]

1.9 JTD ELX 2003. I have just been told it's the pump, but don't know whether it's water or oil. Just feeling like I'm being 'had' at the moment.

 

[Davren]

If it's the water pump, you're likely to have had a warning that the engine temperature was rising before the engine cut out. The water pump is unlikely to have caused €2116 worth of damage.

Same with the oil pump. I likely that the engine would have been making noises before it cut out, but if it is that, it could have caused €2116 worth of damage to the engine.

More likely to have been the fuel pump. There are 2 on the JTD, one in the tank and one on the engine. If either pump stops working, the engine can cut out without warning apart from the low oil pressure warning appearing on the dash. In this scenario, the low oil pressure warning will come on just because the engine has stopped while the ignition is still switched on.

If the problem is with the engine mounted fuel pump, the cost of the pump alone is over £1000 (about €1200) although there is a reconditioned version available from Fiat for half that price. Fitting the new pump will also require a new cambelt kit, so including that and labour it could well be over €2000 at a Fiat dealer if they use a new rather than reconditioned pump.

 

[Bugly]

Thank you very much Davren. I really appreciate your help. It's settling to know what the options are and a realistic idea of price. I just can't help think that they are playing on the fact that it's a foreign car with a time limit to be fixed by and they are taking advantage of this.

The bug was running as usual when it happened and it was a surprise that it went. Praying it's the water pump at the moment. I've not had it that long ands it only cost just over £2k so a bit galling to have to spend as much again so soon after buying it.

 

[Davren]

I just can't help think that they are playing on the fact that it's a foreign car with a time limit to be fixed by and they are taking advantage of this.

I know what you mean. I've just returned from a 2 month, 6,000 mile trip around Europe in my Stilo JTD. I also have European breakdown cover, but dread the thought of having to pay full dealer price for a repair if anything did go wrong. Back in the UK, you have easy access to motor factors and breakers for parts to make a repair cheaper.

If your European breakdown cover is with the AA, they should pay for hotel and/or car hire expenses while the car is being repaired. They should also pay for a new ferry or tunnel ticket if you miss your sheduled departure due to the breakdown. If you have the AA Parts and Labour extension they should also pay £500 towards the cost of the repair.

The bug was running as usual when it happened and it was a surprise that it went. Praying it's the water pump at the moment. I've not had it that long ands it only cost just over £2k so a bit galling to have to spend as much again so soon after buying it.

You don't confirm whether the engine was running hot or making any noises before it cut out. If it wasn't, then I'm more inclined to think the problem is going to be a fuel pump (assuming the garage's rather vague diagnosis of "it's the pump" is correct). I have, however, never heard of a JTD high pressure fuel pump causing a catastrophic breakdown. Only known problem with them is wear at about 200,000 - 250,000 miles (which doesn't cause the car to suddenly cut out) or the seperately available fuel pressure sensor that's fitted to the back of the pump.

If the garage say it is the engine mounted (high pressure) fuel pump, I would be inclined to try and get your breakdown cover company to recover you home rather than have the car repaired in France. JTD high pressure fuel pumps are often available on eBay for £100 to £150 secondhand and you would have the option of finding a local garage to fit it much cheaper than a dealer.

If you get the garage to repair the car, I would get a cast iron guarantee from them that they have made an accurate diagnosis and that it is only the pump and associated cambelt that's needed, before you authorise the repair. Garages, (including dealers) are notorious for "diagnosis by substitution" whereby they try one part first to see if it cures the problem, then another, then another etc. if it doesn't. You end up getting the bill for all the parts and labour.

If you chose to try to get the car recovered home, bear in mind that European breakdown cover companies will only pay for repatriation providing the cost of the recovery is not more than the market value of the car.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Bugly]

Sorry for the delay, I've been waiting for the fax from the garage with an itemised list of what is wrong.

It is the fuel pump that has gone, but they have listed a reconditioned one for 610€ - not a new one in my list. They have also said a new cambelt, 2 pressure pumps and a pressure tranducer? In total around 600 for labour and 1100 for parts.

At the time the engine temp was on 3 bars, no strange noises, running as it always did and as I was coming round a roundabout it cut out. No drama or anything. It's had a recent service, fluid levels are checked regularly and has never showed any signs of problems before. I am driving it up and down mountains regularly but it copes fine.

On a plus note I have a friend up here who has asked a mechanic friend to go and see it tomorrow to get a second opinion. Also I have explained to the assistance company that I have heard locally that the Fiat garage it is at is notorious locally for ripping people off - just like you said, repair by trial and error. They agree that a second opinion is a good idea and they will tow it to another garage for no extra charge. Fingers crossed someone else can do it more cheaply.

Thanks again for your help. I'm a new driver and it'a my first car. I'm a little clueless on these things.

 

[Davren]

It is the fuel pump that has gone, but they have listed a reconditioned one for 610€ - not a new one in my list. They have also said a new cambelt, 2 pressure pumps and a pressure tranducer? In total around 600 for labour and 1100 for parts.

€610 is about the right price for a reconditioned high pressure pump and it would be reasonable to replace the cambelt whilst fitting the pump (the pump is driven by the cambelt).

The JTD only has two fuel pumps, a low pressure lift pump, situated inside the fuel tank and a high pressure injection pump situated on the engine. It's extremely unlikely that both of these pumps would have failed at the same time. I don't understand why the garage says you need the €610 high pressure pump and 2 pressure pumps.

There is a pressure transducer (sensor) fitted to the fuel rail on top of the engine and a pressure regulator fitted on the high pressure pump. (in my previous post, I mistakenly said the pressure sensor is fitted to the pump) It is extremely unlikely that the high pressure pump and the pressure sensor would fail at the same time. A new pressure regulator is included with the new high pressure pump.

My guess is that the garage want to replace all the high pressure components rather than make an accurate diagnosis of which one (if any) is at fault.

 

[Bugly]

I've had another mechanic have a look at it and he has said both fuel pumps and the cambelt need changing. He can do the work for cheaper and so will give me a quote and I'll go with that. It's galling because the cambelt was only done in Feb. I'm going to get it fixed out here as it will make my life a lot easier than trying to do repatriation and then sorting it at home. Oh well, good job I love it.

Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it. Got a funny feeling I should enroll in a mechanics course if I'm keeping my bug...

 

[westray7]

€610 is about the right price for a reconditioned high pressure pump and it would be reasonable to replace the cambelt whilst fitting the pump (the pump is driven by the cambelt).

The JTD only has two fuel pumps, a low pressure lift pump, situated inside the fuel tank and a high pressure injection pump situated on the engine. It's extremely unlikely that both of these pumps would have failed at the same time. I don't understand why the garage says you need the €610 high pressure pump and 2 pressure pumps.

There is a pressure transducer (sensor) fitted to the fuel rail on top of the engine and a pressure regulator fitted on the high pressure pump. (in my previous post, I mistakenly said the pressure sensor is fitted to the pump) It is extremely unlikely that the high pressure pump and the pressure sensor would fail at the same time. A new pressure regulator is included with the new high pressure pump.

My guess is that the garage want to replace all the high pressure components rather than make an accurate diagnosis of which one (if any) is at fault.

We have a Multipla with the jtd 1.9 engine taht will not start. We have fitted anew crank sensor but it still will not start. Can the pressure sensor on the high pressure rail fail and so stop the car by default? Can you bypass that sensor to test the idea?