General Problem starting Motorhome Fiat Ducato 1.9Td 1998

[Dazz3r]

Hi there,
A Newby on this forum, but I would like to ask a quick question just to see if there was the possibility of a known problem/quick fix.

I purchased a 1998 Fiat Ducato 1.9TD motorhome in the summer, and although she is fairly old, she is in amazing condition, with only 40k only on the clock. Been looking forward to the spring and getting out there!

I have ran into a problem under the hood however, and that is a problem with starting it. I noticed a few times over the months when trying to crank the engine, a whirring noise, and then it would fire up the second time.

i have checked the dashboard lights, they all light up as usual, immobiliser has been disarmed, and glow plug light has gone out.

It has happened a few times, and was quite intermittent, but i guess in hindsight it was becoming more frequent, which is frustrating that i necer acted before now.... I tried to start today and it seems it isn't cranking up at all, and all I have got is the whirring noise. I have put a trickle charger on, just incase but my fear is the starting motor itself. I dont mind replacing it, although not the best time of year to be spending out. And I would like to know it will sort it for sure.

If anyone has had a similar problem with the Fiat starter, any advice would be appreciated.

Darren - Southampton

 

[cid]

Hi there,
A Newby on this forum, but I would like to ask a quick question just to see if there was the possibility of a known problem/quick fix.

I purchased a 1998 Fiat Ducato 1.9TD motorhome in the summer, and although she is fairly old, she is in amazing condition, with only 40k only on the clock. Been looking forward to the spring and getting out there!

I have ran into a problem under the hood however, and that is a problem with starting it. I noticed a few times over the months when trying to crank the engine, a whirring noise, and then it would fire up the second time.

i have checked the dashboard lights, they all light up as usual, immobiliser has been disarmed, and glow plug light has gone out.

It has happened a few times, and was quite intermittent, but i guess in hindsight it was becoming more frequent, which is frustrating that i necer acted before now.... I tried to start today and it seems it isn't cranking up at all, and all I have got is the whirring noise. I have put a trickle charger on, just incase but my fear is the starting motor itself. I dont mind replacing it, although not the best time of year to be spending out. And I would like to know it will sort it for sure.

If anyone has had a similar problem with the Fiat starter, any advice would be appreciated.

Darren - Southampton

Hi, I have a 1996 1.9td so similar van. The starting procedure, both hot and cold, is to turn key until glow plug light comes on and wait for it to go out before trying to start. should start first time every time. If not, and you hear a whirring noise, get someone to turn key while you listen and locate noise. If starter motor at fault, replace. I've had my van for 17 years and, using above described procedure, it starts on first attempt. You should also check all earth straps and connections before spending any money. (yes. I am from Yorkshire.) All the Very Best and Welcome, Ian.

 

[Dazz3r]

Hi, I have a 1996 1.9td so similar van. The starting procedure, both hot and cold, is to turn key until glow plug light comes on and wait for it to go out before trying to start. should start first time every time. If not, and you hear a whirring noise, get someone to turn key while you listen and locate noise. If starter motor at fault, replace. I've had my van for 17 years and, using above described procedure, it starts on first attempt. You should also check all earth straps and connections before spending any money. (yes. I am from Yorkshire.) All the Very Best and Welcome, Ian.

Thank you for taking the time to try and help.

As far as checking earth straps, I have had a look on here at various threads and they mention running a jump lead from the negative terminal on the battery to an earth? Suspension mount top bolt or something.

Maybe ill try this first, try to eliminate the potential problems one by one before spending out on a £174 part. Also i have been trying to give the starting motor a few taps with a hammer, just to see if it ceased up, but sods law it's only really accessible from under neath, and as its parked on a slight incline, I certainly don't want to be jacking it up any time soon.

Thanks for help, maybe ill give it another go this morning, and leave it on trickle charge as not to drain the battery whilst trying to turn it over.

 

[Dazz3r]

Thank you for taking the time to try and help.

As far as checking earth straps, I have had a look on here at various threads and they mention running a jump lead from the negative terminal on the battery to an earth? Suspension mount top bolt or something.

Maybe ill try this first, try to eliminate the potential problems one by one before spending out on a £174 part. Also i have been trying to give the starting motor a few taps with a hammer, just to see if it ceased up, but sods law it's only really accessible from under neath, and as its parked on a slight incline, I certainly don't want to be jacking it up any time soon.

Thanks for help, maybe ill give it another go this morning, and leave it on trickle charge as not to drain the battery whilst trying to turn it over.

I have tried again this morning, just to see if the elves have fixed it over night... obviously they are busy, I posted a video. That may be helpful if anyone is in the know.

 

[camionpilot]

If it has been standing and unused for some time the starter motor bendix may have dried out and the gear unable to slide out and contact the ring gear .
Worth dropping the starter and dismantling cleaning the com and brushes[ replace if needed ] making sure they are free in the holders , polish the shaft where the bendix gear slide and very lightly oil the shaft wiping off any excess [ stops it from sticking ] a dab of grease i the rear bearing , clean up terminals and reinstall .

Whilst underneath install a new ground wire from the engine/gearbox to one of the chassis rails , engine mounts are usually an easy mounting point . If this does not work probably needs a new starter or a rebuild .

Above is just time and a little patience and not hard on the wallet .

 

[cid]

Thank you for taking the time to try and help.

As far as checking earth straps, I have had a look on here at various threads and they mention running a jump lead from the negative terminal on the battery to an earth? Suspension mount top bolt or something.

Maybe ill try this first, try to eliminate the potential problems one by one before spending out on a £174 part. Also i have been trying to give the starting motor a few taps with a hammer, just to see if it ceased up, but sods law it's only really accessible from under neath, and as its parked on a slight incline, I certainly don't want to be jacking it up any time soon.

Thanks for help, maybe ill give it another go this morning, and leave it on trickle charge as not to drain the battery whilst trying to turn it over.

 

[cid]

Hi Dazz3r, I've just seen your video and, the last time mine behaved like that
, it was a bad earth.There are several earth straps on this model. Locate, disconnect and clean all. One at a time to, hopefully, detect which one is faulty. Repair or replace. Hope this helps. One piece of unsolicited advice. On vans like ours, your worst enemy is rust of any Fiat made parts. Do all you can to detect and cure this problem. Also, use your van as much as possible. They do not like standing idle. Best of Luck. Ian.

 

[Dazz3r]

Ok, so checked this afternoon after trickle charging the battery for most of the day. Plenty of charge, connected a jump lead to the negitive terminal and tried several places, engine mount, bolt ect to see if I could bypass the earth and create some life,.....unfortunately not. I will get underneath tomorrow and give the starting motor a knock or two, whilst it being turned over just to rule that out, other than that I'm all out of ideas and certainly it goes beyond my limited skill set, so it will be more expense it seems!

 

[Communicator]

Ok, so checked this afternoon after trickle charging the battery for most of the day. Plenty of charge, connected a jump lead to the negitive terminal and tried several places, engine mount, bolt ect to see if I could bypass the earth and create some life,.....unfortunately not. I will get underneath tomorrow and give the starting motor a knock or two, whilst it being turned over just to rule that out, other than that I'm all out of ideas and certainly it goes beyond my limited skill set, so it will be more expense it seems!

@Dazz3r ,

Perhaps I am missing somthing, but all that I could hear on your video was the ignition switch, and passing traffic. No whirring sound.

A poor earth connection has been suggested, but some of the posts that you have seen may relate to the x250 engine earth which has a reputaion for failing internally. Not applicable to your x230 model. The only connecction that needed trying in your case was from the battery negative to a clean point on the engine block. If using engine mountings, attachment of lead must be to the side that is bolted to the block, not the part that is attached to the chassis. A suitable alternative would be a engine lifting lug (eye).

From looking at diagram of x230 starting circuit the solenoid for the "pre-engaged" (not bendix) starter has two windings. A heavy one which grounds through the starter motor, and which should engage the pinion with the flywheel ring gear, before closing the main current contacts for the motor, and in doing so bypass this winding. The second winding also controlled by the ignition switch keeps the pinion engaged and the solenoid contact closed, until the key is released. If the starter motor is faulty, or there is a bad earth connection, there may be insufficient current in the heavy solenoid winding for the solenoid to move the pinion, and close the contact. If this happens, it seems possible that current will continue to flow through the solenoid to the motor, which may spin when not engaged with the engine. Hence the whirring sound.

The cause may be a bad earth as previously mentioned, or a problem with the starter motor, perhaps due to worn or sticking brushes creating a high resistance within the motor. Also the electrical diagram shows that there is a starter relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid, but I am sceptical when relays are suspected, it is more often somethinf else.

I hope that you can follow some of the above. Before spending £££ on a new motor, be sure that you have checked the earth as I have described, which you may have done already.

 

[Dazz3r]

@Dazz3r ,

Perhaps I am missing somthing, but all that I could hear on your video was the ignition switch, and passing traffic. No whirring sound.

A poor earth connection has been suggested, but some of the posts that you have seen may relate to the x250 engine earth which has a reputaion for failing internally. Not applicable to your x230 model. The only connecction that needed trying in your case was from the battery negative to a clean point on the engine block. If using engine mountings, attachment of lead must be to the side that is bolted to the block, not the part that is attached to the chassis. A suitable alternative would be a engine lifting lug (eye).

From looking at diagram of x230 starting circuit the solenoid for the "pre-engaged" (not bendix) starter has two windings. A heavy one which grounds through the starter motor, and which should engage the pinion with the flywheel ring gear, before closing the main current contacts for the motor, and in doing so bypass this winding. The second winding also controlled by the ignition switch keeps the pinion engaged and the solenoid contact closed, until the key is released. If the starter motor is faulty, or there is a bad earth connection, there may be insufficient current in the heavy solenoid winding for the solenoid to move the pinion, and close the contact. If this happens, it seems possible that current will continue to flow through the solenoid to the motor, which may spin when not engaged with the engine. Hence the whirring sound.

The cause may be a bad earth as previously mentioned, or a problem with the starter motor, perhaps due to worn or sticking brushes creating a high resistance within the motor. Also the electrical diagram shows that there is a starter relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid, but I am sceptical when relays are suspected, it is more often somethinf else.

I hope that you can follow some of the above. Before spending £££ on a new motor, be sure that you have checked the earth as I have described, which you may have done already.

Thanks for your advice, I will give it another go this morning.

When I say whirring noise, and i have listened to examples online of a starting motor not engaging, which seems to be more of a spinning crunching kind of noise.....well it certainly doesnt sound like that. More of an electrical noise I guess. Almost like the fan starting, like there isn't enough power.

That was my initial thoughts when it first occurred, bad battery. So I put it on charge. It would happen once or twice, but then it would fire up. Sometimes, it would fire up immediately, which was why i didnt, but should have got it sorted before now. I even remember it happening once, when i purchased the van, i heard it but he quickley stopped, and turned it over again and it fired up. I should have trusted my intuition at that point .....So I will keep trying and check the bad earth again. At least its not raining today.

So just to reiterate, it's a noise that I can only describe as a lack of power, or power not going to the right place at least, rather than any type of spinning metal on metal sound.

Really appreciate the advice though. And sorry sorry for the stupid questions. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Dazz3r]

Thanks for your advice, I will give it another go this morning.

When I say whirring noise, and i have listened to examples online of a starting motor not engaging, which seems to be more of a spinning crunching kind of noise.....well it certainly doesnt sound like that. More of an electrical noise I guess. Almost like the fan starting, like there isn't enough power.

That was my initial thoughts when it first occurred, bad battery. So I put it on charge. It would happen once or twice, but then it would fire up. Sometimes, it would fire up immediately, which was why i didnt, but should have got it sorted before now. I even remember it happening once, when i purchased the van, i heard it but he quickley stopped, and turned it over again and it fired up. I should have trusted my intuition at that point .....So I will keep trying and check the bad earth again. At least its not raining today.

So just to reiterate, it's a noise that I can only describe as a lack of power, or power not going to the right place at least, rather than any type of spinning metal on metal sound.

Really appreciate the advice though. And sorry sorry for the stupid questions. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this.

Tried to bypass the earth and nothing happened. Used a multimeter to check the current, and the two earth straps I tested they both held the same current as the battery. So I think a call to the RAC may be in order to see if they can come and help getting it started at least.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for your advice, I will give it another go this morning.

When I say whirring noise, and i have listened to examples online of a starting motor not engaging, which seems to be more of a spinning crunching kind of noise.....well it certainly doesnt sound like that. More of an electrical noise I guess. Almost like the fan starting, like there isn't enough power.

That was my initial thoughts when it first occurred, bad battery. So I put it on charge. It would happen once or twice, but then it would fire up. Sometimes, it would fire up immediately, which was why i didnt, but should have got it sorted before now. I even remember it happening once, when i purchased the van, i heard it but he quickley stopped, and turned it over again and it fired up. I should have trusted my intuition at that point .....So I will keep trying and check the bad earth again. At least its not raining today.

So just to reiterate, it's a noise that I can only describe as a lack of power, or power not going to the right place at least, rather than any type of spinning metal on metal sound.

Really appreciate the advice though. And sorry sorry for the stupid questions. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this.

Yes, I was trying to explain that a partial fault, either in, or external to, the starter motor, could cause the starter motor to run, without engaging.

Tried to bypass the earth and nothing happened. Used a multimeter to check the current, and the two earth straps I tested they both held the same current as the battery. So I think a call to the RAC may be in order to see if they can come and help getting it started at least.

I'll keep you posted.

I am not clear as to how you used a multimeter to check starter motor current. Most simple multimeters would expire if asked to measure large current flows. The exception is perhaps a clip on DC multimeter.

I hope that RAC can help. You may have to be registered for "home start".

For what it's worth I am attaching a schematic (LHS) / wiring (RHS) diagram for starter and alternator, which I hope is applicable to your x230. Original source was the forum Downloads section, but with annotations and colour code translations added by me. It could help you or others to solve the problem.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

I agree with Communicator. The whirring sound you hear is the starter motor "spinning free" without the pinion engaged with the flywheel ring gear as it should be. The motor can spin free (there is no load on it other than a tiny bit of friction) with a smaller current than normal, let's say 50 Amps, this current being supplied from the battery via the starter relay contacts and then via the "pull-in" winding of the solenoid.

What's supposed to happen is that the energised solenoid magnetically pulls a lever to engage the pinion, and at the same time closes the heavy duty contacts to supply say 500 Amps to the motor to crank the engine. Once this happens, the voltage across the pull-in winding drops to near zero as does its current. That's why there is a second lighter duty "hold-in" solenoid winding drawing say 10 Amps to keep the pinion and contacts firmly in place until you release the key.

I suspect there is either an internal fault in the starter motor (lack of lubrication, wear etc), or there is a poor external connection leading to insufficient current flowing in the "pull-in" winding so that it doesn't quite have enough magnetic "pull" to do its job. This can happen even if the main starting cable etc is in good condition.

 

[Dazz3r]

Thanks for your help guys, and advice. Really appreciate it.

The RAC, come around and as I suspected, following all the advice, obviously they diagnosed the starter motor...gave it a few knocks and advised me on replacing it...

So I purchased one online today with a 25% xmas discount, which cant be bad, and weather permitted I will 'attempt' to remove the old one and examine possibly test it before replacing it if need be.

What on earth can go wrong there!

I'll let you know the outcome.

Merry Xmas

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for your help guys, and advice. Really appreciate it.

The RAC, come around and as I suspected, following all the advice, obviously they diagnosed the starter motor...gave it a few knocks and advised me on replacing it...

So I purchased one online today with a 25% xmas discount, which cant be bad, and weather permitted I will 'attempt' to remove the old one and examine possibly test it before replacing it if need be.

What on earth can go wrong there!

I'll let you know the outcome.

Merry Xmas

Just a couple of reminders.
1. Have you got any necessary radio codes.
2. Do remember to disconnect the battery negative first, and replace last.

Happy Xmas

 

[Dazz3r]

Just a quick update, took a while but managed to remove the starting motor myself, and using the serial number ordered the correct part, and fitted yesterday, which in the dark was a mission and a half. But persistence prevailed and its all up and running now which is a relief. Need to take for a good to get some good charge in the battery.

Thank you for all the help!
Happy new year.

 

[Communicator]

@Dazz3r .

Thank you for taking the time to report your success.

Happy New Year to you too.