General Potential Engine Issues – 1.2 8V Active

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General Potential Engine Issues – 1.2 8V Active

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I’m after advice more than anything – hopefully someone can help :)

I’ve looked after my husband’s 2006 Grande Punto for the last couple of years. Prior to own ownership, it had relatively good history, with a handful of main dealer stamps and a previous owner also taking a DIY approach to regular servicing.

Despite being serviced circa 3,000 miles before we got it, looking at the oil you’d think it had been much, much longer. It was absolutely pitch black! I changed it and moved on, mentally making a note to do the same in another 3,000 miles. Despite the short mileage, all subsequent changes have resulted in absolutely filthy oil.

Now, I appreciate this next choice may be controversial, but I knew the risks going in and I stand by my decision. On the most recent oil and filter change, I opted to use a can on Wynn’s Engine Flush. I also changed the sump plug for an off the shelf alternative I picked up from GSF.

These alternative sump plugs are well documented on this forum (if only I’d checked before!) and within a day, and circa 50 miles, there was a visible leak from the sump.

Knowing this couldn’t continue, I drained the oil, replaced the sump plug with the original, and began to refill the oil. It was at this stage I noticed some goldish looking flakes within the oil.

I can’t find anything Fiat-specific online but it looks like worn shell bearings are a likely culprit. My question is whether anyone has experienced anything similar? If so, how was it rectified?
 
I haven't experienced that on my 1.2 fortunately though I wonder whether you have flushed old c**p out of the engine. Question, how does it run, are you getting any ticking/rumbling/knocking from the engine?
 
It's never been the smoothest engine but overall it runs relatively well.

It does tick but always has so this isn't as a result of the engine flush. I'd say it's more of a tappety noise. This did initially disappear after the oil change but has subsequently returned.
 
I haven't experienced that on my 1.2 fortunately though I wonder whether you have flushed old c**p out of the engine. Question, how does it run, are you getting any ticking/rumbling/knocking from the engine?

Yep, I would agree with flushing cr*p out of the engine. Additives are pretty much frowned upon not the best choice to start with. Purely guess work as I’d have to see hear the engine to make a judgement on how the car is running. Why did you change the sump plug?
 
I was always told to change the sump plug with every oil change. Admittedly I haven't always followed this advice but as this was the fourth oil and filter change since buying the car, thought I'd give it a go. In hindsight, this was entirely pointless given the fact the replacement lasted no longer than a day.

I wouldn't normally use an additive and did do a fair amount of research prior to using it. As I said, I knew the risks and stand by my decision. Despite changing the oil and filter every 3,000 miles, the oil has always been pitch black. Using an additive seemed to be the only way to really make a difference and improve performance.
 
Black oil is normal on diesel engines and also petrol engines do get black oil after some thousand kms. It's nothing to worry about, it depends on the drive cycle - frequent short trips tend to make the oil black sooner.

If MOT emissions test is fine, you shouldn't worry too much. Also remember to change the spark plugs too. It's amazing how many people forget to change them.

Also if it's not an oil burner, you can be assured that the engine's fine. No fault codes? Also engine flush thing should always be drained and refilled with fresh oil and filter afterwards. You should only try it when it has developed real issues.
 
Black oil is normal on diesel engines and also petrol engines do get black oil after some thousand kms. It's nothing to worry about, it depends on the drive cycle - frequent short trips tend to make the oil black sooner.

If MOT emissions test is fine, you shouldn't worry too much. Also remember to change the spark plugs too. It's amazing how many people forget to change them.

Also if it's not an oil burner, you can be assured that the engine's fine. No fault codes? Also engine flush thing should always be drained and refilled with fresh oil and filter afterwards. You should only try it when it has developed real issues.
I wouldn't say black oil is normal in a petrol after just 3k miles
At that millage it should still be a dirty brown colour
 
The black oil means that it's doing what it was supposed to do: lubricate, clean and protect. Assuming the original poster's using some fully synthetic engine oil and does frequent short trips the oil would be good for another 3000k miles too. Too frequent oil changes are pointless unless you want to keep the car for the next 20 years and at that point the engine would still be running flawlessly but everything else failed. :) It will not boost performance either.


Infact if emissions have been ok always, then the engine is OK. Also it'd not hurt to change spark plugs every 30-50k depending on the service interval. My point is to give a peace of mind and say if it ain't broken - don't try to fix it. It's going to be scrapped within 5 years anyway.
 
Most often a wee ticking noise is going to be cam followers and unless it's really loud, or you are a perfectionist, best left alone as they are shim type so quite involved to adjust. It's not often they need adjusted anyway, many FIRE engines will go their whole life without any adjustment.

We have a Panda 1.2 and a Punto 1.4 in the family, both 8 valve engines, and both tick on start up for a few seconds until the oil reaches the followers but then run quite quietly.

I would agree with chris that really black looking oil after only 3,000 miles seems strange. Like Jim above, I'm not keen on using a flushing agent in an older engine, especially if it's not had such a product used previously at every oil change, which would minimize deposits building up in the first place. I suppose a case can be made for using a flush, from new, at every oil change but I think doing a regular oil change at either a year or around the 10,000 mile interval - whichever comes first - is the best procedure, then filling with a good quality oil. I've worked on engines which have no oil filtration, like the old air cooled VW and the small two cylinder DAFs as well as numerous air cooled horticultural engines. When dismantled, often after many miles/hours or service, sludge and deposits are often found tucked safely away in the corners and bottom of the sump. If left alone these seem to cause no problems but if you sling in a flush you may disturb all this C**p which will then circulate round the engine during the flushing run time before some of it, maybe most of it, but for sure not all of it, comes out with the drain. So, for me, NO! none of the engines I look after will ever have a flushing agent imposed upon them. However as you've already done it I'm sorry and hope my comments above haven't been too depressing?

Little "glinty" golden/silver colored flakes are indeed very often minute bits of the soft metal used in shell bearings but if there are very few of them I wouldn't be overly worried as long as you're not hearing big end knockings etc. Why? because what are you going to do about it? drop the sump and remove some big end and main bearing caps for a look see? No, if I were you I'd just keep on using the car and being alert for any "nasty" engine noises.

Sump plugs? It seems to be the modern "fashion" to replace the sump plug on everything, regardless of the plug's design, at every service. I suspect this may be a "knee jerk" reaction to the stripped thread problem suffered quite often now a days due to the common use of aluminium alloys for sump production and people over tightening the plugs causing the stripping of the relatively soft aluminium. It's very noticeable on my relatively new Ibiza that the sump plug's threaded section is considerably longer and the sump boss where the threaded hole is formed is more substantial that older models. The main agent insisted on a new plug every service during warranty but earlier this summer I did the second service since it went out of warranty and happily reused the existing sump plug which looked in "as new" condition. (replacing crush washers, if used, is only sensible though) Our wee FIRE engines have steel sumps with a steel threaded insert welded in and a taper plug. Virtually impossible to strip but you can overtighten them if you really lean on them when reinstalling which just might then cause the welded insert to rip out of the sump pan when you try to remove it with something like a 2ft power bar. I've had no leakage problems on any of the many FIRE engine'd FIATs we've owned over the years although it's noticeable that some plugs screwed into their "holes" more deeply than others. If I had a problem with weeping I might try a wee bit of sealant on the threads but I wouldn't use PTFE tape in case some got into the sump, maybe on subsequent oil changes, and partially fouled the pickup screen filter.

Well, I wish you good luck with your's and hope all is well. Please do keep us updated if there are any developments of interest won't you?
 
it'd not hurt to change spark plugs every 30-50k
eeeno I'm not sure the recommendation is right for the 1.2. My vehicle handbook says maximum 18,000 miles for spark plugs

Back to garethrobinson - a question for you: what oil did you use? The requirement per the book is 5w40 synthetic C3. C3 is low ash and should stay cleaner. I'm assuming you replaced the oil filter


Also another question. Have you checked the pipes that pass under the airbox? They're breathers and rot through, the small one from behind the engine, the big one across the top of the engine. That's pretty normal (Fiat sells improved versions). If those are bad they both cause leaks and allow dirty air into the oil system
 
I think you're right about the plugs. I doubt if your recommended plug is going to be one of the "long life" Iridium/platinum or whatever type. My local motor factor sells me genuine NGK "copper core" old type plugs for around £3.00 each and I change them every 2 years. Of course you can use the "posh" ones but unless you are doing high mileages I can't see the advantage.

5W/40 is indeed best for these engines in our climate and in my experience. Some people on the forum have written of problems, like tappet noise etc, when using the thinner options. On the other hand I wouldn't use a thicker oil because I like a quick circulation at start up. I've been using Fuchs oils in all the "family fleet" vehicles for several years now with excellent results. In both Fiats I use this https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60166-fuchs-titan-gt1-xtl-5w-40-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx I find there are often offers on ebay which help save a bit of money. Oil filter replaced at every oil change of course.

The OP talks of "pitch black" oil. Judging when the oil is "dirty" and due to be changed just by looking at it can be difficult but I was taught a useful way of doing it by an old Rolls Royce mechanic (are people who work on Rolls Royce cars called "mechanics" do you think, or is that too "common" a word?) He advised taking a clean lint free cloth and immediately after dipping the dipstick to draw it through the cloth and examine the residue left behind. Of course this needs to be done shortly after the engine has been stopped so the oil is still well stirred up. Now look at the cloth. If the residue is clear or light brown the oil is good. However if it leaves a black stain contaminated with little black spotty bits in it you're probably past needing to do a change. This method tends to allow the oil itself to be drawn into the cloth but leave behind the contaminants so you can clearly see how dirty the oil really is. He also advised me to never wipe the dipstick with a cloth and immediately replace it in the engine. He would always withdraw the stick and draw it between his thumb and forefinger to clean the oil off the graduated section. Then reinsert it and withdraw it again to check the true level. He was adamant that you shouldn't risk introducing possible fabric threads into the engine by wiping the stick directly with the rag! Bit of overkill I think, but I like his way of checking the oil cleanliness on a bit of clean rag or tissue.

I'm not sure if the following picture is clear enough to highlight the differences but maybe it'll help:

P1100056.JPG

On the very left is a wipe of new clean oil (the Fuchs contains no dye so you can see almost no image of it) The next wipe is of the oil in my Panda after about 4, maybe 5 months and 1,000 (or so) miles. Then is the oil I took out of my boy's Punto after a year and about 8 to 9,000 miles and finally, on the right, is oil from a neighbour's car which he couldn't remember when he last had it changed and had probably done around 12,000 miles or a little more. You can just see that solids are beginning to be visible in that last sample.
 
Thanks to everyone who’s taken the time to respond – it’s very much appreciated.

There’s a few mentions of spark plugs and the importance of changing them. These were changed about 2,500 miles ago. Interestingly, the plugs I removed were also absolutely filthy.

I’ve always used what I think to be good quality oils. Initially this was Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 however as I started to change the oil more frequently, I’ve started using DriveTec 5W-40 from GSF. Both are fully synthetic and meet the required standards. The filter has been changed each time with either a Bosch or MANN filter.

DGPunto – all pipes have been checked and replaced where necessary. Thanks for flagging though. The oil has always met the minimum standards required – see above.

Puggit Auld Jock – thank you for confirming the flakes are most likely to be bits of shell bearing. I’ll be sure to keep this thread updated, whatever the outcome.

Although drastic for some, my hope was using an additive would remove enough cr*p to allow for less frequent changes.

This is our third 1.2-engined Fiat although our first Grande Punto. None of our previous cars have had oil this filthy after such a small amount of mileage, despite being used for the exact same purpose, hence the concern.
 
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Gareth, how handy are you with slightly more than just "service" tasks? Although you can look inside the oil filler cap and pull off breather pipes to get some hint of what it looks like inside, if you are up for it you could remove the cam cover and have a look inside. This would give you a good idea as to just how "dirty" the inside of the engine really is. If you decide to do this just be a little careful with the wee bolts that hold it on. They can be quite tight but I've never had one snap, even on our old 1992 Panda, but I did read on the forum, a post from someone who had snapped a bolt.

If you do decide to take a look and whip the cover off but are not sure about what it should look like then post a picture on here and I'm sure some of us would give you guidance. Generally speaking you would expect to find all the metal surfaces looking quite clean, perhaps with a slightly brownish tint which some oils seem to produce. A badly sludged up engine will have gelatinous black deposits of sludge coating everything except the moving parts, so cam lobes and followers, which will look bright and shiny.

Although they last quite well, the rubber cam cover gaskets are known to leak as they age so if you do this you're best to buy a new gasket for reassembly and put a small amount of silicon sealant in the corners as they sometimes leak there.
 
Unfortunately..
The picture you are painting is of a car not seeing any new parts.. despite what the paperwork is telling you

I bought a FIAT with 60k on the clock.. oil went black like yours.. change after change

A year later..I had the Cam cover off.. it looked like a plantpot had been tipped out

Black packed crud.. obviously from no oil change in the 50k before I found history

Your flush is probably a good thing :)
Charlie
 
I’m more than up for removing the cam cover. Our two previous MK2s both developed a leak from the rocker cover so it’s nothing I’ve not done before. Just something I hadn’t thought about doing. Thank you for the suggestion!
 
Unfortunately..
The picture you are painting is of a car not seeing any new parts.. despite what the paperwork is telling you

I bought a FIAT with 60k on the clock.. oil went black like yours.. change after change

A year later..I had the Cam cover off.. it looked like a plantpot had been tipped out

Black packed crud.. obviously from no oil change in the 50k before I found history

Your flush is probably a good thing :)
Charlie

Thanks Charlie. I think removing the cam cover as both you and Pugglt Auld Jock suggest is the next logical step.

I have booked it in at a local garage to have it checked over. I'll be honest and say I wouldn't really know what to listen for and I don't want to disregard something that really shouldn't be disregarded! I will say it has always sounded rougher than the two Puntos that preceded it.

If they suggest it's unlikely to fail catastrophically I'll have the cam cover off over and report back.
 
I’m more than up for removing the cam cover. Our two previous MK2s both developed a leak from the rocker cover so it’s nothing I’ve not done before. Just something I hadn’t thought about doing. Thank you for the suggestion!

Great! Do let us know what you find won't you. A picture too would be interesting. Good luck.
 
I had a thought of the service history being fabricated because it sounded a little too good to be true. However take into account the age of the car, it's old. Engine failure wouldn't be completely unheard of.

Plugs can tell the engine's running condition. How about fuel mixture and emissions, sluggish lambda. Running a little rich? That's why i was asking about the emissions.
 
I had a thought of the service history being fabricated because it sounded a little too good to be true. However take into account the age of the car, it's old. Engine failure wouldn't be completely unheard of.

Plugs can tell the engine's running condition. How about fuel mixture and emissions, sluggish lambda. Running a little rich? That's why i was asking about the emissions.

I’ve never had any problems with the emissions to be honest. It’s sailed through the two MOTs it’s had with us without issue.
 
Gareth - back to your initial post, it wasnt good idea to use Wynns Engine Flush. Because if you didnt inspect visualy something like oil sludge inside engine (cover), you dont know whats going on. Black oil...ok...new original Fiat oil has also "cleaning capabilities" and changing it more often (once a year) will clean whole engine. Using Wynns Flush can clog oil input from the sump and also cause issues with oil leaking through gaskets. Like I said - if you dont know the status of engine from inside (how many oil sludge is there and so on), its very risky to use Wynns Flush.
Regarding oil plug changes - I never changed oil plugs on my cars, only oil plug gasket (if present).
Regarding oil color - looks that there is some oil sludge inside engine, and that causes new oil getting black very soon. New oil has also cleaning ability so it eats from that sludge. Thats great because its cleaning slowly without possibility to clog oil input in the sump. Yes, its long-term process, maybe 3 years when engine cleans itself, this depends how often you change the oil. For engine like yours I'll change FIAT ORIGINAL OIL twice a year
 
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