Technical Please help stop the mega judder!!!

[faster4_tec]

haven't had any problems in ages, and then in the last few week/months its getting really bad.

so mk1 1242 8v na, on the 5spd.

trying to move in first at ANY rate (either briskly or as gentile as poss) will result in mega juddering, its not a misfire or engine runnig problem..
seems to me its one of the two gearbox mounts, but from sticking a big crobar in there and riving it, there is no play


in reverse, there is no problem atall. you can do anything you like and it feels solid. just going forwards in 1st, and if you try 2nd from a standstill the same effect.

anybody recomend anything else it could be? and no my driveshafts aren't brokne, although it *could* be worn, any idea how to 'check' them for 'wear'.

 

[bandido41]

Either thrust bearing (clutch release bearing) or you need a new clutch. (either way i would replace the whole kit anyway.)

 

[faster4_tec]

clutch was brand new, this was happenign just before clutch change hence why I changed it (well that and my thrust bearing exploded, pictres are on an old thread, the juddering was a factor).

and as far as I could tell the clutch fork was in good condition with no real wear/rattle.

I have read that ppl seem to be warping flywheels,, but then if it was warped my engine WOULD have rattled itself to pieces by now.

 

[Ralf S.]

What's the main engine mount look like? The engine should be practically motionless when it's idling. If it's leaping about a lot, then it's the mounts.

If the engine looks good at idle, then it can only be a drive problem. Even if the clutch is new.. the flywheel COULD be warped (etc) which will make take-up problematic.

If it only does it when you're engaging or disengaging the clutch then it's defo' a drive problem.


Ralf S.

 

[stumpy102]

If the thrust bearing exploded then is there any chance part of it could still be stuck in there some where????

 

[faster4_tec]

no we got all of it out, however there WAS damage to the drive spline on the g'box. I couldn't feel any play in either the fly or the g'box shafts, but obviously I can't put as much force on it as the engine can


how do you reckon the flywheel could have been warped? excessive clutch usage in traffic? as I hardly use it in town/city, use the bike for that, the punto gets country/motorway usage.
when the old clutch went it didn't get any chance to slip, it was maybe about 15-20%worn down (80-85% of material remaining) over 85k miles :worship: the bearing made a nasty noise for a few days, then I changed it. simple as. but the damage to the spline was already done.

can't really think how the damaged spline would affect it.
but a warped fly would certainly have this effect, e.g only gives this juddering when between gears and that.

ALTHOUGH, I can feel it still juddering thru the floorpan and my bum when driving on perfectly flat smooth roads.
AND if I'm driving round corners quite hard, in wet or dry (more in teh dry) above 40mph the gearlever smacks from side to side VIOLENTLY, I'm putting that down to gearbox/engine mount play meaning the moving g'box is moving the fixed gear selector shafts around

as for engine play at idle, barely any, it vibrates a bit, but then it always has that amount, if you rev it the top of the engine maybe moves 3/4-1 1/4" which seems about right to me for an engine mount set up of this type (read rubbish, I'm used to turbo saabs which have 3 engine mounts 2 gearbox mounts, and they DO NOT move, only vibration damping).

 

[toad101]

had a similar problem on the cinq, the mount on the underside of the gearbox had worn its insides away the outside was fine so couldn't tell by looking at it

 

[Mal126]

Sorry but sounds like diff to me , could end up coming through g/box casing

 

[faster4_tec]

that was my intial thought when the gearlever started shaking the way it does months back, but kept ignoring it

anyway, I'll strip it when I get some time and see whats what. fairly sure the engine mount is OK enough, there is some play in it, but not bad. the g'box mounts as you say are hard to tell until you get em off.

this is the first proper problem I've had with my punto in 3yrs and 50k, so not bad atall

 

[luvduvs]

Does it go away after a while or is it juddering all the time?

 

[faster4_tec]

less so when warm, but still does it.

 

[The Sultan]

set off as iv you were racing yur best mates corsa sxi only do it in second

do this a few times and it will stop juddering

edit: krikey this is old why is it near the top

 

[Ralf S.]

Why will that work..? We need to know.

Ralf S.

 

[a1ant]

Why will that work..? We need to know.

Ralf S.

If there is contamination on the clutch plates, then this can cuase juddering when pulling away. Best way to clear it, is to do as littlepip said and "drive it like you stole it" once the engine is fully warmed up, as this will give the clutch a bit of a hammering and wear away the contaminant on the clutch plates.

Alan

 

[oktopod]

clutch was brand new

Have you traveled 40K miles since?

 

[The Sultan]

Have you traveled 40K miles since?

they don't wear our in 40k learn to drive already

ok well fiat use borgbeck cutches in alot of cars amungst others it all comes down to prodution date iirc and they are rubbish there german what do you expect

the linings wear unevenly causing juddering or it may just be the clutch plate

every time you feel it juddering it is actually getting worse the more you judder as it excentuates the problem

so every time it does it raise the engine rpm or something to stop it straight away

and as i say give it some spirited driving setting off in second is my favorite

I done it many times with customers cars and it works every time and don't normally come back

(now you know what the words clutch adjusted on my job cards mean lol)

another way to stop the judering is to have it replaced but if it's done under warranty then it will be another borgbeck as supplied buy fiat as they wont pay for any thing else and the problem may come back

another way to sort it is to buy a valeo clutch italian make these are great clutches we fit them to cars that are out of warranty as they are much better than borgbeck and they are cheap too also they have more clutch release thingers or more cuts if you like making them lighter and easier to use

 

[oktopod]

Littlepip, could you explain to me "and as i say give it some spirited driving setting off in second is my favorite"
How o you do that, you mean start from 0 in second gear but 'burn' the clutch by holding it a bit?

 

[a1ant]

Hi mate,

Stating from standstill in 2nd means that in order to stop the car from stalling, you have to slip the clutch and give it lots more revs than you normally would. (or "burn" the clutch as you put it) This has the effect of warring away a layer of the clutch plate material. This technique can be used for contaminated clutches (which can also cause juddering or slipping) and also, in the case that littlepip has described above, when the linings have worn unevenly (resulting in juddering).

Obv this should not be done often, as it does ware your clutch more than driving normally, however, in the case the OP has, it may help to fix the problem by wearing the friction material enough to stop the juddering. Normally starting from a standstill and pulling away with lots of revs in second gear teo or three times will cure the problem, or at least make it a lot better.

hope that helps,
Alan

 

[oktopod]

OK, thnx, I thought so, just needed a confirmation plus how many times to do it....so 2-3 times

And this detailed explanation is so useful, but yet so logical than one could have thought of it by himself, but ya mind has to be car mechanic oriented

 

[faster4_tec]

before the car went I managed to fix the problem, the judder was from a combination of a resonably worn gearbox mount, and once moving, was the longer driveshaft (whichever side that was) was pretty heavily worn, resulting in mega judder.

Took ages to figure out, but by the time I Had, gearbox cups/bearing were buggered, and cheap valeo clutch had almost complelty worn out (not even 10k miles on it :bang so had to tear it down. then found spline shaft on g'box was worn (from poorly fitted cheap valeo clutch I think) and had to replace that too.


damn that car cost me a lot of money & time & patiance, but i still miss it