Technical Pilot bearing?

[JimTwin]

Hi All, I'm replacing the clutch on a 2013 Fiat 500 Twinair 0.9L. The clutch kit came with pressure plate, clutch plate and thrust (throw out) bearing but no spigot (pilot) bearing. On inspection, there doesn't seem to be a pilot bearing in the DMF and no provision on the gearbox shaft for a bearing to run on - it's splined all the way to the end of the shaft.
Do these have a replaceable pilot bearing?
Thanks for any information, Jim

 

[puntodeltathema]

No, Fiat don't tend to use pilot bearings (if they did the input shaft bearings might last better!).

Nick

 

[portland_bill]

No pilot bearing.

Older inline engines and gearboxes needed one, as the input shaft was short, having one big bearing in the front of the casing, and then supported by the pilot bearing in the ccrank, and a needle roller at its joint with the mainshaft. The input and mainshaft effectively became one mutually supported unit, but there are of course three shafts including the layshaft.

With the move to transverse engines and front wheel drive, gearboxes whent to two shafts, instead of three. The input shaft is also the mainshaft, supported at both ends with substantial bearings, so no need for a pilot bearing. The output, or secondary, shaft is also supported at both ends with big bearings, and it then has the drive to the differential.

 

[JimTwin]

Thank you people. After the work involved to remove the gearbox I didn't want to put it together without replacing a bearing worth a few dollars. The throw-out bearing had completely disintegrated and the fingers on the pressure plate over heated to the point they had bent inwards inwards like a saucer - remarkable that it was working at all before it died.

 

[portland_bill]

Thank you people. After the work involved to remove the gearbox I didn't want to put it together without replacing a bearing worth a few dollars. The throw-out bearing had completely disintegrated and the fingers on the pressure plate over heated to the point they had bent inwards inwards like a saucer - remarkable that it was working at all before it died.

Those symptoms suggest the driver has been resting their foot on the pedal. Either the current driver, or any/all previous drivers.

 

[John202020]

Those symptoms suggest the driver has been resting their foot on the pedal. Either the current driver, or any/all previous drivers.

It amazes me how long people hold their car on the clutch at the lights instead of the hand brake for many minutes I just hate to see how hot it's getting?

 

[JimTwin]

Mea culpa - I think.
My wife and I bought this car to teach our four teenagers to drive. My other car is a V8 Landcruiser and that isn't easy to learn how to reverse parallel park.
The Fiat was one of the few compact cars available with a manual transmission. It has done an admirable job with three out of four and if I can coax it back to life for the last one I will be very happy. Lots of bunny hops, stalling and "riding the clutch" that I know it is not designed for.
It's done 95,000 km and probably 40,000 km in the four years or so we've owned it. I've changed oil, filters and an ignition coil but this is the first "major" repair.
Forums like this one are an amazing source of collective knowledge.

 

[puntodeltathema]

Well, four teenagers is beyond any manufacturer's testing regime...it's done well

Nick

 

[Zebravanman]

Same has happened on my 500, I've changed the clutch but realised the slave is spring loaded and applying pressure on the clutch arm and engaging the release bearing all the Time...so I'm a bit confused why this is the case as it won't last one if its engaged all the time is the same for you

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Mea culpa - I think.
My wife and I bought this car to teach our four teenagers to drive. My other car is a V8 Landcruiser and that isn't easy to learn how to reverse parallel park.
The Fiat was one of the few compact cars available with a manual transmission. It has done an admirable job with three out of four and if I can coax it back to life for the last one I will be very happy. Lots of bunny hops, stalling and "riding the clutch" that I know it is not designed for.
It's done 95,000 km and probably 40,000 km in the four years or so we've owned it. I've changed oil, filters and an ignition coil but this is the first "major" repair.
Forums like this one are an amazing source of collective knowledge.

Thanks PB, I've copied the PDF to my downloads. Two of my three children learned on Pandas - ideal learner/early driver cars in my opinion.

 

[Gina500]

If I remember correctly, they taught you in driving school (and still do is what my daughter tells me) to have the gear in and clutch pressed when you wait at a traffic light. Totally stupid if they asked me (but they don't).
The other thing that inexperienced drivers do is "ram" the gears in to get the awkward moment of shifting done as quickly as possible. The Fiat box seems to be quite tolerant to this when I see my daughter shifting gears in a way that would have led to grinding noises in some other car. Maybe the use of cables instead of solid rods helps here to dampen the effect.
But that may be the reason the ball joint at the cable end frequently breaks, maybe it even is a sacrificial part designed to "save" the gearbox from damage (though I doubt Fiat would think that far).

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If I remember correctly, they taught you in driving school (and still do is what my daughter tells me) to have the gear in and clutch pressed when you wait at a traffic light. Totally stupid if they asked me (but they don't).
The other thing that inexperienced drivers do is "ram" the gears in to get the awkward moment of shifting done as quickly as possible. The Fiat box seems to be quite tolerant to this when I see my daughter shifting gears in a way that would have led to grinding noises in some other car. Maybe the use of cables instead of solid rods helps here to dampen the effect.
But that may be the reason the ball joint at the cable end frequently breaks, maybe it even is a sacrificial part designed to "save" the gearbox from damage (though I doubt Fiat would think that far).

There was a conversation on the forum, about a year or so ago? which discussed this at some length - the keeping your foot down on the clutch pedal or not "thing" - arguments for both were put forward but no-one changed my mind from the instruction given to me by "Old Mr Scott" who was my driving instructor decades ago back home in the Scottish Borders who taught me that my left foot belongs on the floor unless I'm selecting gears. All my children were taught to engage gear long before the traffic lights change and hold the pedal down and it caused some distress trying to convince them that this is bad practice (in my opinion) but I've seen too many ruined release bearings/diaphragm fingers to change my mind. Here in Edinburgh we have a steep hill in the middle of town called "The Mound" which is one of the main ways from the north to south of the city so many use it. It causes me great anguish observing/listening/smelling the clutch abuse as people hold their cars on the clutch for, sometimes, two or three changes of the lights at the top of the hill as they inch forward.

My younger boy seems to have some degree of "mechanical sympathy" when selecting/changing gear but my daughter and older boy both "snatch" gear changes as if they are doing a "racing shift". What people don't give a lot of thought to, or have any understanding of, is the function of synchro rings. If you shift quickly you are greatly increasing the braking forces they have to apply to the gear clusters, which translates into increased wear rates on external linkages, selector forks and the rings themselves. It's a great credit to their designers that they actually work so well as to allow quick changes like this but if you can get into the habit of being less "eager" you will stress the box a lot less.

So, when selecting a gear from a standstill, as you depress the clutch pedal do the "count of three seconds" in your head. So it's "one" as you depress the pedal, then "two" as you hold it down and "three" as you engage the gear. This works especially well with reverse where most boxes don't employ synchronizing rings so you can crash the gears if you move too quickly before the gears can slow down. Also, as you shift when on the move, if you pause, ever so very briefly as you go through neutral, rather than just ramming the lever straight through, the speed differential between the gears will be less and you will give the synchros a chance to "bite" the next gear without having to do so much "work" and so reducing wear.

PS. Perhaps there is an argument for allowing learners to do this when there are so many other stressful things they are coping with. But I think, once they have mastered these basic skills they should then be taught to "give the clutch a break"!

 

[portland_bill]

If I remember correctly, they taught you in driving school (and still do is what my daughter tells me) to have the gear in and clutch pressed when you wait at a traffic light. Totally stupid if they asked me (but they don't).
The other thing that inexperienced drivers do is "ram" the gears in to get the awkward moment of shifting done as quickly as possible.

To my mind, this is poor instruction. Surprisingly, most of the instructors I've met over my 17 years as an instructor have little knowledge of how a car works. Many of them even having to get help to change a bulb.

Initially, the learner will have poor control, and everything happens slowly. So it is comon to sit at traffic lights with gear engaged, with the hope that they can get the car moving on green, before it returns to red. This is fine for a short time, but needs to be unlearned as their skills develop. Difficult to unlearn anything, and more so if the instructor never bothers. I prefer to get them to watch the other lights and traffic and anticipate when they'll get a green, a bit more advanced, but better for them, long term, and certainly better for my car.

Ramming the gears in is a trait many present. Bear in mind, at 17, they've had 17 years of absorbing the way parents drive, and the instructor has to undo much of that, over 40-50 hours. Under stress, they will revert to the way their parents drive, not the way they have been taught, which is the cause of many test fails. As Jock says, count through 3 for a slower, more precise change, with reduced wear, on both car and driver.

Once a learner gains some control of the car, and can then concentrate more on the road, traffic, and route, I can usually give a summary of their parents driving style. I've surprised quite a few parents with a summary of their driving, having never seen them drive. None have denied anything.

 

[portland_bill]

So, when selecting a gear from a standstill, as you depress the clutch pedal do the "count of three seconds" in your head. So it's "one" as you depress the pedal, then "two" as you hold it down and "three" as you engage the gear. This works especially well with reverse where most boxes don't employ synchronizing rings so you can crash the gears if you move too quickly before the gears can slow down. Also, as you shift when on the move, if you pause, ever so very briefly as you go through neutral, rather than just ramming the lever straight through, the speed differential between the gears will be less and you will give the synchros a chance to "bite" the next gear without having to do so much "work" and so reducing wear.

PS. Perhaps there is an argument for allowing learners to do this when there are so many other stressful things they are coping with. But I think, once they have mastered these basic skills they should then be taught to "give the clutch a break"!

For my job, coaching qualified drivers, there is a requirement to retake an advanced test every three years. Nearly every time they mention the slowness of my gearchanges, although none have found any risk involved. I counter, like Jock, with an explanation of how the synchro system works, and they have no argument, especially when I offer to draw diagrams. Gotcha!

Like Jock suggests, my learners do get taught mechanical sympathy. Taking more time to change gear forces them to plan better, and gains a more relaxed drive overall, so they see the benefit.
Initially with BSM, then later with AA, it was easy to compare fuel consumption and mechanical failures with colleagues. My fuel consumption with learners was only slightly worse than on my own, and far better than any colleague. Never needed a clutch, although some others did, and we changed the cars annually. (Could be 40-50k miles in a year though, much with learners. Take the mileage of a learner car, multiply by 3 for an indication of the wear & tear.)
The Fiat 500 seemed to stand up to the abuse beter than the Corsa or Fiesta.

 

[rmjbn1]

my driving instructor decades ago back home in the Scottish Borders who taught me that my left foot belongs on the floor unless I'm selecting gears.

Thanks for that quote Jock! I've been teaching my girlfriend to drive and that'll be another useful mantra to repeat until she's thoroughly sick of me

She's had a handful of lessons with an instructor and I was shocked to hear the instructor told her to keep her feet on the brake and clutch at traffic lights

I was also raised to consider mechanical sympathy, whether it's a bicycle or a car, and I'm convinced they're nice to you if you're nice to them.

But then my old man is a huge Jim Clark fan, and he's adamant Clark was the only driver who could get the famously unreliable Lotuses (or Loti...) to the end of a race because he was easy on the machine.

Also, Science Fiction should have taught us all the dangers of not being kind to machines

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Difficult to unlearn anything, and more so if the instructor never bothers. I prefer to get them to watch the other lights and traffic and anticipate when they'll get a green, a bit more advanced, but better for them, long term, and certainly better for my car.

Unlearning bad habits is indeed very difficult, I'm sure I have some.

One "habit" commonly seen is that of holding the car on the brake pedal instead of applying the hand brake. Unfortunately the modern driver assist of "Hill Hold" has greatly increased this practice. Of course if you keep your brake pedal depressed when stationary rather than applying your hand brake then the brake lights will stay lit which is very unpleasant for the vehicle behind you in hours of darkness. What a lot of people don't consider is that you'll also burn out the bulb much more quickly which then gives the boys in blue a reason to pull you over and maybe find something else they can write you up for. Of course the latest cars have LED rear lights which should last much longer but, if they fail, cause you to take out a second mortgage to repair!

I'm interested to see you advocating watching the "other" set of lights at junctions. I've long done this (and watch the pedestrian lights where they are installed) and find it works very nicely as a guide for timeously selecting gear ready to move off. Very important to watch "your" lights before actually moving though! Can I also exhort everyone to also look both ways before moving off and not just rely on cross traffic having halted. I'm a great people watcher in traffic and I would say the majority of people just "go" when their lights change - often before the green actually illuminates - without actually taking any notice of what cross traffic is actually doing. I admit 99% of the time this is fine, but there's always the 1% "amber gambler" to catch you out if you are too quick and unobservant getting off the mark.

I have a favorite set of lights for "entertainment" They are on the A1 as it heads out of Edinburgh to the east. There are 3 lanes of traffic with filter arrows. Also, to further confuse, the priorities change between busy periods and normal hours. So you are sitting there with all 3 lanes stationary. Then, going out of town, the right lane gets it's filter arrow so off they go. Time and time again the car in the middle lane moves off with them - against their red light, but obviously they've just moved when the car next to them moved. Unfortunately the traffic coming into town, also 3 lanes, is getting a right arrow too! Lots of headlamp flashing and horn blowing ensues - great fun!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for that quote Jock! I've been teaching my girlfriend to drive and that'll be another useful mantra to repeat until she's thoroughly sick of me

She's had a handful of lessons with an instructor and I was shocked to hear the instructor told her to keep her feet on the brake and clutch at traffic lights

I was also raised to consider mechanical sympathy, whether it's a bicycle or a car, and I'm convinced they're nice to you if you're nice to them.

But then my old man is a huge Jim Clark fan, and he's adamant Clark was the only driver who could get the famously unreliable Lotuses (or Loti...) to the end of a race because he was easy on the machine.

Also, Science Fiction should have taught us all the dangers of not being kind to machines

Another thing I was taught when I started in the trade was that if you are not familiar with driving automatics then imagine your left foot is nailed to the floor. Just plant it on the floor and don't move it, do all your braking and accelerating with your right foot. If you don't you'll soon wish you had when you push the - non existent - clutch down hard and give your passengers sore necks, to say nothing of the man in the car behind having a heart attack!

Mechanical sympathy is something some people have in buckets full and others just can't manage. Very difficult to teach.

I watched Jim Clark piloting a Mk1 Lotus Cortina round Brands when I was in college down in London. He used to set the thing up beautifully with just a hint of rear end slide going on and the inside front wheel well clear of the road surface "dangling" in thin air - wonderful sight and so smoothly done. As I imagine you know, the original iteration of this car with it's Lotus independent rear suspension was well known for it's fragility and later versions went back to a beam rear axle.

In reply to your last comment there's only one thing to say: Isaac Asimov & Robots?

 

[portland_bill]

...She's had a handful of lessons with an instructor and I was shocked to hear the instructor told her to keep her feet on the brake and clutch at traffic lights

Oh dear. I wonder what other crap he's teaching. Might need another instructor.

One "habit" commonly seen is that of holding the car on the brake pedal instead of applying the hand brake.

There's a useful phrase we use: "When a pause becomes a wait, use the handbrake." Can be used with autos too. Select N, apply handbrake. The handbrake should be capable of holding it against the auto 'creep', but no need to strain stuff.
If the handbrake is used regularly, the cables stay free. When I got the Panda, at 4 yrs old and 26k miles, the handbrake cable was stiff, and I thought I may need to replace the cables. Now 10 years later, same cables, working nicely.

I'm interested to see you advocating watching the "other" set of lights at junctions.

I often freak my pupils out, by counting down, 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1, at which point the amber light comes on. Partly luck, but mostly years of watching light sequences, and a 'timer' in my head for most of the local lights, having been teaching around the area for 17 years.

Mechanical sympathy is something some people have in buckets full and others just can't manage. Very difficult to teach.

My father was a 'breaker'. His whole life, a succession of broken cars, then despite having the knowledge and skills to mend them, bodged until they broke again. In his garage, pots of old fastenings. All removed from stuff to be replaced with 'better', but used again when a 'new' fastener was needed. Still annoys me now. Worst, was when he would happily fit a BSF or Whitworth bolt to a UNF, or worse still, a metric vehicle.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

There's a useful phrase we use: "When a pause becomes a wait, use the handbrake." Can be used with autos too. Select N, apply handbrake. The handbrake should be capable of holding it against the auto 'creep', but no need to strain stuff.
If the handbrake is used regularly, the cables stay free. When I got the Panda, at 4 yrs old and 26k miles, the handbrake cable was stiff, and I thought I may need to replace the cables. Now 10 years later, same cables, working nicely.

Worst, was when he would happily fit a BSF or Whitworth bolt to a UNF, or worse still, a metric vehicle.

I wish I'd known that phrase of yours when my kids were learning. Actually, I've just resolved, I'm going to email it to them today!

Becky, our Panda, also had a stiff and spongy feeling hand brake which felt to me very like partly seized cables. Now, after some 3 years of ownership, it's feeling much more positive and free moving. She's now 11 years old, wonder how much longer I'll get out of them? Going to give them a good checking over when I do the rear brake rebuild. (I keep talking about doing this, must get my finger out and make a start!)

I have very few BSW/BSF fittings, mostly left over from very old motor cycles, but I do have boxes of common sized UNF/UNC fixings. The temptation is sometimes very great to use one where it's an untapped hole and the imperial size will fit. I do resist it though - seems such a waste to have all the imperial stuff just sitting there! I'd sell it but it's probably worth virtually nowt? Mind you, just occasionally, it can save your bacon when you strip out a metric thread in a casting and find you can rethread it to a near size UNF size. Ok as long as it stays in my ownership I suppose?

 

[rmjbn1]

Oh dear. I wonder what other crap he's teaching. Might need another instructor.

Thanks pb, I don't think we'll be going back to him...

I was also dismayed going through the DVLA's official Theory Test practice that they're promoting 4 wheel drive vehicles as safer because they 'provide more grip'. I couldn't agree less. Maybe they're assuming learner drivers won't be able to grasp the difference between grip and traction?

My father was a 'breaker'. His whole life, a succession of broken cars, then despite having the knowledge and skills to mend them, bodged until they broke again. In his garage, pots of old fastenings. All removed from stuff to be replaced with 'better', but used again when a 'new' fastener was needed. Still annoys me now. Worst, was when he would happily fit a BSF or Whitworth bolt to a UNF, or worse still, a metric vehicle.

Hah, that does remind me of my father! He certainly doesn't practice what he preaches, and continues to drive cars into the ground.

We always had Citroens growing up, our long-suffering local mechanic was appalled to find my dad had fitted some used metric bolts to replace fixings that had shaken loose on our Austin-Healey (which itself has a charming original mix of BSF, UNF, Whitworth and some obscure ancient gas threads).