Parking in gear

[jimboy]

Anecdotally I have worked also in the motor trade for quite a few years and never saw it, I’ve also abused the ratchets on my own car for year, 70,000 miles on my punto 100,000 miles on fords and Saab’s and never once had a problem with any of them.

Just using this forum as a reference, how many posts are there about failed ratchets.....? (There will obviously be the odd one here and there as the cars get older ) Versus the thousands of other posts on her for all manour or various problems.

Needing a new ratchet every 2 years for the MOT Is not really inkeeping with even the worst ratchets abuser

I'm in my 60's & have worked with cars in & out of the trade.... never come across this ratchidy worness either....

 

[g8rpi]

The expansion rate of steel and thus brake discs is a well known figure.

A half inch brake disc would expand only 0.08 of a a millimetre if you heated it to the point that’s the metal was glowing (so seriously heavy high performance braking) about 460’C. And that level of expansion is about the thickness of a human hair.

You’d be hard pressed to get the front discs on a doblo glowing let alone the rears, and as you rightly point out the rears have significantly less work to do so even on very high performance cars the rears don’t tend to get up to those sort of temperatures.

So with a properly applied handbrake the brake discs contracting by the thickness of a human hair (assuming you could get the rear discs glowing) in truth it would be far less than that) would not be expected to see the car rolling down the hill as there is play in the system to account for expansion and contraction of parts anyway.

I suspect this is a tall tail from someone.

The change in disk thickness is just a small part of the equation. There is also expansion of the pad material, calliper and actuating mechanism. The last two can be subject to significant leverage effects so a small change in dimension could be a big change in force.
That said, I agree that cooling brakes alone is unlikely to cause loss of braking without other factors being involved.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[AndyRKett]

The change in disk thickness is just a small part of the equation. There is also expansion of the pad material, calliper and actuating mechanism. The last two can be subject to significant leverage effects so a small change in dimension could be a big change in force.
That said, I agree that cooling brakes alone is unlikely to cause loss of braking without other factors being involved.


Robert G8RPI.

Indeed obviously there are plenty of other factors to take into account and much harder to calculate without knowing exactly what material is used in the pads or what fluid is in the system as this can also expand with heat. However all these components (as I know you know, from what you do) will have been carefully taken into account with various means put in place to maintain friction in the face of component contraction otherwise we’d see cars up and down the country going on adventures across carparks and down hills all day everyday.

Either the car was in poor shape or more likely it was a tall tail to save face and the guy simply forgot to put the hand brake on or didn’t put it on properly.

I once parked up my wife’s mini, came back out 5 -6 minutes later to find it very slowly rolling towards a wall. The dog was in the car at the time, so I still maintain that the dog knocked the hand brake off, although she lacks apposable thumbs and the ability to therefore press the button while pulling the handle up... so I suspect I just forgot to put it on.... cost me £300 to get the bumper painted

 

[StevenRB45]

Since I started teaching in,1987, the motto has always been "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" but I do remember an animated conversation about 10 years on here where several members from hilly, rural areas, such as the Lake District and parts of Wales and Scotland bemoaned the fact that very few younger drivers seemed to know how to use the gears as a method of controlling the car, either on hills or when driving round bends; and they were all fairly young themselves.

I was never taught how to engine brake when I passed (2002), I had to learn as early cars I would suffer from brake fade during "spirited" down hill sections. Never stopped doing it though as although brakes have got better...and I've also stopped driving like a nob which also helps..it's useful.

So for example, I live at the top of hill, I follow people regularly who ride the brakes all the way down it, personally I just select 3rd gear at the top, up to 4th on the flatter bit then back to the 3rd before the corner at the bottom. So they've used the brakes for 2 miles, I've not pressed them once, also it won't run away so I don't need to constantly watch the speedo like a hawk.

That and more modern cars use a variable alternator to take advantage of times you are rolling clutch up to reclaim the energy. More useful to give it a few more RPM rather than heating the wheel arches.

Also my wife was taught "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" in conjunction with gears by road speed...this is beyond nonsense..so I'm doing 40..I should be in 4th..really? In every car ever made? On every incline/decline. But she also apparently wasn't taught how to use a tacho. I imagine there will have more to it that she hasn't retained as other wise that's just plain daft.

 

[g8rpi]

<SNIP>

The dog was in the car at the time, so I still maintain that the dog knocked the hand brake off, although she lacks apposable thumbs and the ability to therefore press the button while pulling the handle up... so I suspect I just forgot to put it on.... cost me £300 to get the bumper painted

My sister was out with my baby niece and small dog. She unlocked the car, put bag and dog in the front, opend the back, straped baby in car seat, closed back door just as the dog jummed up in the front and put it's paw on the door knob. This of course locked all the dors, keys dog and baby inside. This resulted in a full emergency services response (except the coastguard ) and coverage in the local paper

.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[jimboy]

What the hell is wrong you people It's almost like daft & curios deaths but without anyone croaking it!!!

 

[The Beard]

I was never taught how to engine brake when I passed (2002), I had to learn as early cars I would suffer from brake fade during "spirited" down hill sections. Never stopped doing it though as although brakes have got better...and I've also stopped driving like a nob which also helps..it's useful.

So for example, I live at the top of hill, I follow people regularly who ride the brakes all the way down it, personally I just select 3rd gear at the top, up to 4th on the flatter bit then back to the 3rd before the corner at the bottom. So they've used the brakes for 2 miles, I've not pressed them once, also it won't run away so I don't need to constantly watch the speedo like a hawk.

That and more modern cars use a variable alternator to take advantage of times you are rolling clutch up to reclaim the energy. More useful to give it a few more RPM rather than heating the wheel arches.

Also my wife was taught "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" in conjunction with gears by road speed...this is beyond nonsense..so I'm doing 40..I should be in 4th..really? In every car ever made? On every incline/decline. But she also apparently wasn't taught how to use a tacho. I imagine there will have more to it that she hasn't retained as other wise that's just plain daft.

One of the (perceived) benefits of electronic control of petrol engines is how many of them have engines running at a speed that is easily related to the road speed. For instance, from 1.25 Fiestas to the 1.6 Focus to my old MJ Panda to the current 1.2 Panda Easy 2,000 rpm in first equates to 10mph. 2,000 in second is 20mph, 2,000 in third is 30mph and 2,000 in fourth ends up as 40mph.

If your car has a rev counter, as all the ones above do, then asking pupils to drive on the tacho can be quite an effective way of getting them to learn how the engine, and the speed it runs at, affect the way the car accelerates and decelerates. If you don't have a rev counter it's, obviously, a little difficult. The fact that all the above cars drop (about) 500 revs when you change up at 2,000. Interestingly, if you have a gear change arrow type thingummyjig on your dashboard that also tends to suggest changing up at about 2K.

There are obviously cars where that doesn't apply; our old 156 is quite low geared and the Giulietta has 6 gears.

Personally, once out of the initial stages of learning, all my pupils will learn to block change down, and occasionally up. However, quite a few of them have enough difficulty dealing with the basics of changing gear sequentially without having to work out other things like, should I change from 3rd to 5th or stay select 4th before moving up?

One thing most ADIs would like is more time. Admittedly that would help boost their earnings but it would also allow time in the car to teach them how to drive correctly on motorways and how to deal with more complex, and often higher speed, rural roads.

 

[StevenRB45]

Personally, once out of the initial stages of learning, all my pupils will learn to block change down, and occasionally up. However, quite a few of them have enough difficulty dealing with the basics of changing gear sequentially without having to work out other things like, should I change from 3rd to 5th or stay select 4th before moving up?

One thing most ADIs would like is more time. Admittedly that would help boost their earnings but it would also allow time in the car to teach them how to drive correctly on motorways and how to deal with more complex, and often higher speed, rural roads.

When thinking about this I can't help but think about a specific incident shortly after she passed her test. Leaving a rounderbout into an uphill national limit with a crawler lane she accelerated through the gears up to 40..and hit 4th on a 15% gradient in a 1.2 Nissan Micra. At this point I may have interjected..you'll need 3rd for this bit..to receive no we're doing 40 it's 4th..any way this back and forth continued getting slightly more frantic/heated until the final exchange was we're doing 22 ****ing miles an hour and we're about to stall on a major road...can we change down yet?

That was a fun ride home....

I get why it would make gears easier to teach, but if it's all the pupil retains it's very dangerous indeed. It's getting on for learning by Rote especially when combined with lessons spent just running the test route.

 

[portland_bill]

I've met a few instructors who teach change with speed, seemingly applying the same rule to all cars. We need to get the new drivers to think, to listen to the car and to feel it. How does it sound and feel? The change indicator is a guide, but the car can't see, so may suggest an upchange approaching the bottom of a steep uphill.
The 1.0 100hp Ecoboost Fiesta won't play the game, as it is quite high geared. (Will go to about 65 in 2nd, then block change to 5th if necessary) At 40 it will just about pull 4th gear, but if it drops to 38 it struggles. Similarly, at 50 it is just on the bottom of the 5th gear range, but 48 it struggles, 45 it tries to stall. A 50mph road behind anyone doing 45-48 needs 4th gear. If you change up as soon as the upchange indicator pops up, progress is sluggish, there'll be an angry queue behind, and each upchange drops the engine into its rough range, characteristic of all triples. Genius to build an engine that is most economical when it feels rough.
If safe, I'll let an inattentive learner stall on an uphill, quite violent, makes them pay attention. Need the right hill with little traffic and plenty of rear view. In early stages we experiment with the ranges of each gear, how low will it go, how high before it makes a fuss, where is its happy range, how do they overlap, etc.

 

[MattHarris19872016]

Personally I (almost) always park the car with the handbrake on and the gear lever in 1st or reverse. Not because of any particular safety reason but simply out of habit born of driving Mk1. Escorts and Moggie 1000s in my very early driving days. As I think I mentioned a few posts ago I do mention it to pupils by way of general education but don't get them to do it on lessons or test. I think the hope is that if they do have to park on a steep hill, at some time in the future, they will remember to take that additional precaution.

Since I started teaching in,1987, the motto has always been "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" but I do remember an animated conversation about 10 years on here where several members from hilly, rural areas, such as the Lake District and parts of Wales and Scotland bemoaned the fact that very few younger drivers seemed to know how to use the gears as a method of controlling the car, either on hills or when driving round bends; and they were all fairly young themselves.

The fact remains though,that the very people who should have had the best interests of learner drivers at heart, their parents, are often the people who come up with quotes like: "I've taught him/her to drive, can you just let him/her take the test in your car and show him a few tricks of the trade?"
Or, "Of course you only start to learn to drive once you've passed your test"

Most parents want to spend/want their children to spend about £50 in order to pass a driving test and plenty want to have a discussion about the finer points of driving that they think they know, yet you can't teach everything a new driver needs to know during the course of 25 to 40 hours of tuition.

Pass+ exists for that purpose, as do the IAM and RoSPA.

I haven't yet taken a learner onto the motorway network as I still think that should come after the test has been passed, although I have taken plenty on it under the auspices of Pass+ and think it, on the whole, is a very good idea. Plus, although everyone is different, I've always been a bit concerned about giving a new driver too much to contend with in too short a space of time.

Very interesting insight? Would you still leave a car with stop start technology parked in gear?

 

[Steve145]

Very interesting insight? Would you still leave a car with stop start technology parked in gear?

Don't see any reason not to, the start/stop gubbins only works when the engine is 'running' and the definition of parked implies ignition off, keys out.

Disclaimer - I've never driven a car with start/stop.

 

[portland_bill]

Very interesting insight? Would you still leave a car with stop start technology parked in gear?

Makes no difference. Stop/start will not restart the engine if the clutch is up and it is in gear. Must be clutch down.
If engine 'running' and has 'stopped', engine will remain off for a limited time. This time will depend on electrical demands, but is usually max 2-3 minutes, then engine restarts. It will only do this if in neutral. If in gear it will squeak at you, to demand you depress clutch or take out of gear. Once key is out, will not start on its own. It is not an alien being trying to take over the world.

 

[MattHarris19872016]

Personally I (almost) always park the car with the handbrake on and the gear lever in 1st or reverse. Not because of any particular safety reason but simply out of habit born of driving Mk1. Escorts and Moggie 1000s in my very early driving days. As I think I mentioned a few posts ago I do mention it to pupils by way of general education but don't get them to do it on lessons or test. I think the hope is that if they do have to park on a steep hill, at some time in the future, they will remember to take that additional precaution.

Since I started teaching in,1987, the motto has always been "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" but I do remember an animated conversation about 10 years on here where several members from hilly, rural areas, such as the Lake District and parts of Wales and Scotland bemoaned the fact that very few younger drivers seemed to know how to use the gears as a method of controlling the car, either on hills or when driving round bends; and they were all fairly young themselves.

The fact remains though,that the very people who should have had the best interests of learner drivers at heart, their parents, are often the people who come up with quotes like: "I've taught him/her to drive, can you just let him/her take the test in your car and show him a few tricks of the trade?"
Or, "Of course you only start to learn to drive once you've passed your test"

Most parents want to spend/want their children to spend about £50 in order to pass a driving test and plenty want to have a discussion about the finer points of driving that they think they know, yet you can't teach everything a new driver needs to know during the course of 25 to 40 hours of tuition.

Pass+ exists for that purpose, as do the IAM and RoSPA.

I haven't yet taken a learner onto the motorway network as I still think that should come after the test has been passed, although I have taken plenty on it under the auspices of Pass+ and think it, on the whole, is a very good idea. Plus, although everyone is different, I've always been a bit concerned about giving a new driver too much to contend with in too short a space of time.

I found Pass + a really good course I was glad I did it. Out of curiosity how would you choose between first and reverse gear parking on a level surface?

 

[portland_bill]

I found Pass + a really good course I was glad I did it. Out of curiosity how would you choose between first and reverse gear parking on a level surface?

If it is a level surface, the car isn't going anywhere, even with the brake off. So why bother with any gear? Consider another option, which way is it most likely to be pushed? Risk of being hit?

Or just make sure the handbrake works.

 

[AndyRKett]

If it is a level surface, the car isn't going anywhere, even with the brake off. So why bother with any gear? Consider another option, which way is it most likely to be pushed? Risk of being hit?

Or just make sure the handbrake works.

I think this has already been covered, he's just trying to keep his thread going with inane questions.

 

[MattHarris19872016]

I think this has already been covered, he's just trying to keep his thread going with inane questions.

Or maybe as I have already said I am ignorant about this and genuinely interested. I know you would LOVE that I had an ulterior motive here so you can keep with your trolling and ludicrous assertions so I’m sorry to dissapoint you.

 

[The Beard]

Very interesting insight? Would you still leave a car with stop start technology parked in gear?

Yes, although most of the time, not living in a hilly area, it would be, as I mentioned earlier fairly pointless; I just do it out of habit.

 

[The Beard]

I've met a few instructors who teach change with speed, seemingly applying the same rule to all cars. We need to get the new drivers to think, to listen to the car and to feel it. How does it sound and feel? The change indicator is a guide, but the car can't see, so may suggest an upchange approaching the bottom of a steep uphill.
The 1.0 100hp Ecoboost Fiesta won't play the game, as it is quite high geared. (Will go to about 65 in 2nd, then block change to 5th if necessary) At 40 it will just about pull 4th gear, but if it drops to 38 it struggles. Similarly, at 50 it is just on the bottom of the 5th gear range, but 48 it struggles, 45 it tries to stall. A 50mph road behind anyone doing 45-48 needs 4th gear. If you change up as soon as the upchange indicator pops up, progress is sluggish, there'll be an angry queue behind, and each upchange drops the engine into its rough range, characteristic of all triples. Genius to build an engine that is most economical when it feels rough.
If safe, I'll let an inattentive learner stall on an uphill, quite violent, makes them pay attention. Need the right hill with little traffic and plenty of rear view. In early stages we experiment with the ranges of each gear, how low will it go, how high before it makes a fuss, where is its happy range, how do they overlap, etc.

With Twin-Air and triples there are more different feeling cars than there used to be, but setting that aside, most people even now will buy a four cylinder engined car, so many feel similar.

The other side of having so many different cars on the market is the number of people driving them. Although, to be fair, I haven't done many lessons over the last 15 years as I'm only really trying to keep my hand in until the time I retire from my "day job" and can return to instruction to top-up my pension, but I would say that, in general, pupils are less interested in how cars work and what goes on under the skin than they used to be.

It doesn't take a lot of skill to buy something on-line, or put something on facebook or re-tweet somebody else's link to somewhere else, and I can't help thinking that learning about the nuts and bolts of a motor car is rapidly hurtling into the too-hard-to-do box. Eyes glaze over and fingers twitch to the trouser pocket to find the mobile that isn't there any more because I've put it in the glovebox.

 

[Steve145]

Out of curiosity how would you choose between first and reverse gear parking on a level surface?

All else being equal, I'd select first, as the reverse idler was a weak spot on many older gearboxes.

 

[MattHarris19872016]

All else being equal, I'd select first, as the reverse idler was a weak spot on many older gearboxes.

Personally I choose either first or reverse based on which the opposite to which direction the car would roll if the handbrake failed. I take it this is a perfectly ok and harmless habit?