Panda 2012+ Panda raid, what do you think?
- Thread starter Fiat workshop
- Start date
- Replies 51
- Views 2K
Well, that certainly stands out! One of a kind, that’s for sure. Be careful reversing with those mud flaps if you don’t want to lose them…
So its been lifted 30mm, widened by 60mm, the tyres are proper mud tyres and it has a winch, just in case. Working on a snorkel ATM.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,464
- Points
- 463
Is that a TA Jamie? Good job you kept the parking sensors?!
Its a lightly breathed on TA, I do fancy doing a Multi Jet but I would really like to fit a 1600....
The parking sensors will help when that tree gets a bit close.
I love the tyres they really work well on the green lanes round here!
The parking sensors will help when that tree gets a bit close.
I love the tyres they really work well on the green lanes round here!
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,464
- Points
- 463
Well if anyone can do that...
I have wondered about 4x4 set up in an Arbath 500 but that might just be pointless?! Out of interest did you keep the DMF?
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 241
- Points
- 148
Has it been remapped?
We have remapped it to 110bhp and we have left the dual mass flywheel on it as removing the DMF makes the syncro's in the gearbox wear prematurely as they have to brake the whole mass of the crank and flywheel rather than just the secondary mass within the flywheel.
Chris Vince
Member
Not quite correct.
When changing gear, surely the clutch is depressed FULLY isolating the crank, flywheel etc from the gearbox, that is it's purpose.
So the only thing a particular synchro ring has any influence on, is the particular gear it is synchronising to it's mating partner gear.
You are correct , sorry I simplified it! Basically we have found that with both twin air and diesels changing to a single mass flywheels ruins the gearbox.
Transmission off imbalance through the block to gearbox casing?
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,464
- Points
- 463
Well it sounds plausible but regardless of the specifics I have worked (on and off) on engineering solutions for the automotive sector over the years and one thing is a given - they would not use a DMF (or any other more complex and therefore, more, expensive solution) if it was not required. Costs rule, so my view would be that its there for a reason.
Chris Vince
Member
I have read the reason was driver comfort - reduced cabin noise, and an emissions cheating dodge - allowing lower engine revs during testing.
Don't forget DMF's WERE available, but the early twinair 4x4's did NOT have them fitted.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,464
- Points
- 463
Ah, but conversely, were they fitted to resolve early transmission failure?
Here's something I wrote on Dual mass flywheels 10 years ago:-
One of the major issues all the manufacturers have is the dual mass flywheel (DMF) which seems to need to be replaced every time that you need a clutch and that puts the price of clutch replacement up to around £1000 which on a car that has probably done in excess of 100,000 miles will probably make it uneconomical to repair. So the first thing to understand is what a dual mass flywheel is designed to do. The dual mass flywheel is an aid to making the gear change on your car lighter and more positive while also making the engine and gearbox smoother and quieter. So how does it work, in order to make an engine smoother you need to increase the mass of the flywheel but as you do this the mass of the gear train effectively becomes less as a proportion of the total mass that is in motion and you will get noise, rattles and vibration from the gear train, in order to get around this you would traditionally have increased the mass of the gear train which in turn would mean that the synchro's (the brake that matches the speed of the gears that are about to be engaged) also had to become stronger and therefore the gear change becomes heavier and more agricultural. To get around this you have to increase the mass of the gear train without increasing the mass of the gears, this is done by splitting the flywheel into two separate masses (hence the name 'dual-mass flywheel'), one mass that is attached directly to the engine and one mass that is attached directly to the input shaft of the gearbox, these two halves are then separated from each other by a damper which stops the natural vibration of a large high capacity, high compression engine being transferred to the gearbox.
So how much trouble are dual-mass flywheels and when are they worn? Well if you own a Peugeot 407 2.0l diesel you may well find that you need a new one every 20000 miles or less while on Alfa Romeo's they seem to last well part 100,000 miles without trouble, I can almost feel the engineers amongst you bristle at this next comment but bare with me, and even with this sort on mileage on them they can often go again (not best practice) as long as there is only slight tangential rotation in the secondary mass relative to the primary mass, however, if there is any free play axially it should be replaced, however on later cars they have a fully floating dual-mass flywheel with internal clutch adjustment and that is almost impossible to assess the wear on it. These late flywheels also need special tools to stop them from adjusting up while you are doing gearbox repairs so beware!
One of the major issues all the manufacturers have is the dual mass flywheel (DMF) which seems to need to be replaced every time that you need a clutch and that puts the price of clutch replacement up to around £1000 which on a car that has probably done in excess of 100,000 miles will probably make it uneconomical to repair. So the first thing to understand is what a dual mass flywheel is designed to do. The dual mass flywheel is an aid to making the gear change on your car lighter and more positive while also making the engine and gearbox smoother and quieter. So how does it work, in order to make an engine smoother you need to increase the mass of the flywheel but as you do this the mass of the gear train effectively becomes less as a proportion of the total mass that is in motion and you will get noise, rattles and vibration from the gear train, in order to get around this you would traditionally have increased the mass of the gear train which in turn would mean that the synchro's (the brake that matches the speed of the gears that are about to be engaged) also had to become stronger and therefore the gear change becomes heavier and more agricultural. To get around this you have to increase the mass of the gear train without increasing the mass of the gears, this is done by splitting the flywheel into two separate masses (hence the name 'dual-mass flywheel'), one mass that is attached directly to the engine and one mass that is attached directly to the input shaft of the gearbox, these two halves are then separated from each other by a damper which stops the natural vibration of a large high capacity, high compression engine being transferred to the gearbox.
So how much trouble are dual-mass flywheels and when are they worn? Well if you own a Peugeot 407 2.0l diesel you may well find that you need a new one every 20000 miles or less while on Alfa Romeo's they seem to last well part 100,000 miles without trouble, I can almost feel the engineers amongst you bristle at this next comment but bare with me, and even with this sort on mileage on them they can often go again (not best practice) as long as there is only slight tangential rotation in the secondary mass relative to the primary mass, however, if there is any free play axially it should be replaced, however on later cars they have a fully floating dual-mass flywheel with internal clutch adjustment and that is almost impossible to assess the wear on it. These late flywheels also need special tools to stop them from adjusting up while you are doing gearbox repairs so beware!
Chris Vince
Member
You also wrote this:
"as removing the DMF makes the syncro's in the gearbox wear prematurely as they have to brake the whole mass of the crank and flywheel rather than just the secondary mass within the flywheel."
Chris Vince
Member
DMF's did not resolve early transmission failures, even today a Panda is fortunate to go past 60,000 miles with one.
The transmission failure was down to weak ball bearings, the Fiat cure was to fit much stronger roller bearings.
The weakness in the ball bearing cage I submit was exposed by the input shaft experiencing excessive vibration originating from prematurely worn DMF's.
I still maintain that a half worn, unbalanced, insecure DMF (say covered only 30,000 miles) causes far more gearbox damage through transmitted vibrations, that a perfectly balanced (for it's whole life) single mass flywheel.
We have found that with the race cars that removing the DMF will kill a gearbox in one or two races!
