Panda 2012+ Panda raid, what do you think?

[Panda IIs]

You also wrote this:
"as removing the DMF makes the syncro's in the gearbox wear prematurely as they have to brake the whole mass of the crank and flywheel rather than just the secondary mass within the flywheel."

If you reference this quote you should also reference the correction in post 12...

Panda 2012+ - Panda raid, what do you think?

Fiat workshop submitted a new vehicle: Panda raid, what do you think? Read more about this vehicle...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Panda IIs]

DMF's did not resolve early transmission failures, even today a Panda is fortunate to go past 60,000 miles with one.
The transmission failure was down to weak ball bearings, the Fiat cure was to fit much stronger roller bearings.
The weakness in the ball bearing cage I submit was exposed by the input shaft experiencing excessive vibration originating from prematurely worn DMF's.
I still maintain that a half worn, unbalanced, insecure DMF (say covered only 30,000 miles) causes far more gearbox damage through transmitted vibrations, that a perfectly balanced (for it's whole life) single mass flywheel.

But surely the issue is that the twinair (TA) or anything less than a V6 design is inherently less than perfectly balanced in the first place? I think I will go with the evidence presented. I have a 100+k miles TA two DMFs later that still has its original gearbox.

 

[Fiat workshop]

Its quite exciting when the DMF's fail as they chop the end off the thrust bearing guide!

 

[Panda IIs]

Its quite exciting when the DMF's fail as they chop the end off the thrust bearing guide!

Here's a photo Ben took earlier...

Weight reduction for the track?

 

[Fiat workshop]

yep, thats what they do! Have seen worse when the thrust bearing then breaks up and takes out the operating fork.

 

[Fiat workshop]

Believe it or not you can replace the thrust bearing and that will still work!

 

[Panda IIs]

Its quite exciting when the DMF's fail as they chop the end off the thrust bearing guide!

I suspect you have to have a very unsympathetic "mechanical" ear for it to get that bad? Or a very loud stereo?

 

[Fiat workshop]

But surely the issue is that the twinair (TA) or anything less than a V6 design is inherently less than perfectly balanced in the first place? I think I will go with the evidence presented. I have a 100+k miles TA two DMFs later that still has its original gearbox.

You are talking about second order vibrations, where the crank is at 90 degrees to top dead centre and the pistons are slightly more than 1/2 way down the bore , causing the imbalance, due to the angle of the con rods. In the 1750 engine they deliberately used longer con rods to alleviate this problem.

 

[Fiat workshop]

I suspect you have to have a very unsympathetic "mechanical" ear for it to get that bad? Or a very loud stereo?

Once they fail they seem to do this extremely quickly, 30-40 miles or less.

 

[Chris Vince]

We have found that with the race cars that removing the DMF will kill a gearbox in one or two races!

Chalk and cheese mate, 99.9% of Pandas will only ever see a race track car park, if that!
Race cars are virtually rebuilt after every event anyway, so no big deal.
I'll wager that no where in their original sales blurb did Fiat proudly announce that their Panda's clutch is a consumable item, that WILL require replacement every 50,000 miles!
I have left the 'dark side', seen the light, and gone single mass, time will tell, BUT I reckon with this uprated bearing gearbox and solid flywheel setup, it will outlast many DMF's!

 

[Chris Vince]

We have found that with the race cars that removing the DMF will kill a gearbox in one or two races!

Chalk and cheese mate.
Race cars are virtually rebuilt after every event, so no big deal.

If you reference this quote you should also reference the correction in post 12...

Panda 2012+ - Panda raid, what do you think?

Fiat workshop submitted a new vehicle: Panda raid, what do you think? Read more about this vehicle...

www.fiatforum.com

I hate to think others will think I have a strop on, I DON'T.
There was NO correction, so no need to refer to it, how is:
"You are correct , sorry I simplified it! Basically we have found that with both twin air and diesels changing to a single mass flywheels ruins the gearbox." a correction?
The OP's original premise was that; gearbox baulk rings are exposed to the entire rotating forces of both the crankshaft and flywheel combined!
I pointed out this was entirely incorrect, and that a baulk ring only has to cope with the rotating mass of the partner gear.
Surely there is no way to 'simplify' an inherently incorrect statement?
There will be desperate people out there in the future, searching for answers to solve their woes and worries, this is WHY every effort must be made to keep all postings factual and accurate, on this and all other similar websites.
The OP has experience of 'racing' Pandas, a car that was NEVER EVER designed or envisaged to be raced, their cars have stresses and strains placed on them waaaaaay above that any Fiat engineer has ever dreampt would occur!
I put it that their experience of C514.5/6 gearboxes and solid mass flywheels whilst interesting, is pretty much irrelevant to those 99.9% of cars used as every day transport?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

One person has made their OWN decision, based on their experience and ANALYSIS.

Arguably (because everyone argues here!) the country's leading specialist counsels DIFFERENTLY, based on LIVED EXPERIENCE of hundreds of these vehicles.

Time will tell.

I JUST LOVE this new vogue for USING CAPS to strengthen MY ARGUMENT.

 

[Fiat workshop]

Chalk and cheese mate, 99.9% of Pandas will only ever see a race track car park, if that!
Race cars are virtually rebuilt after every event anyway, so no big deal.
I'll wager that no where in their original sales blurb did Fiat proudly announce that their Panda's clutch is a consumable item, that WILL require replacement every 50,000 miles!
I have left the 'dark side', seen the light, and gone single mass, time will tell, BUT I reckon with this uprated bearing gearbox and solid flywheel setup, it will outlast many DMF's!

My sons Panda 4x4 TA did 180,000 miles on its first dual mass flywheel before it did the gearbox munch! So I suspect there's some luck in there somewhere.

Yes you did rear that right 180,000 miles, the twin air unit gave up at 150,000..

 

[Bonefish Blues]

My sons Panda 4x4 TA did 180,000 miles on its first dual mass flywheel before it did the gearbox munch! So I suspect there's some luck in there somewhere.

Yes you did rear that right 180,000 miles, the twin air unit gave up at 150,000..

About 115k here on a multijet 4x4 before you told me to change it.

 

[Panda IIs]

One person has made their OWN decision, based on their experience and ANALYSIS.

Arguably (because everyone argues here!) the country's leading specialist counsels DIFFERENTLY, based on LIVED EXPERIENCE of hundreds of these vehicles.

Time will tell.

I JUST LOVE this new vogue for USING CAPS to strengthen MY ARGUMENT.

The power of the Capitol @Bonefish Blues

Chris Vince came here seeking advice and peoples experience, the really best part of this forum. This advice and experience is offered in good faith but is there to be assessed and ignored if so desired. The important thing is that @Chris Vince feeds back their experience for the next reader as he says.

 

[Panda IIs]

Once again @Fiat workshop WELCOME to the forum!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Its a lightly breathed on TA, I do fancy doing a Multi Jet but I would really like to fit a 1600....

The parking sensors will help when that tree gets a bit close.

I love the tyres they really work well on the green lanes round here!

Maybe I should get you to do this to my MJ - it’s coming to you on 5th May anyway

 

[murdo316]

Looks class.

What tyres are fitted?

The only proper off road tyres in Panda size that I've been able to find so far are Ziarelli Mud Power, which look good and I've heard ok things about, but wow are they expensive to get hold of in the UK.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Looks class.

What tyres are fitted?

The only proper off road tyres in Panda size that I've been able to find so far are Ziarelli Mud Power, which look good and I've heard ok things about, but wow are they expensive to get hold of in the UK.

Zooming in on the Fiat Workshop’s photo… are those the Ziarellis? I think they are

 

[Panda IIs]

Zoom in… are those the Ziarellis?

There's more here https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/my-panda-4x4.504202/post-4738640 and I vaguely remember a contribution on here from a Polish guy/girl who was talking about tyres (off road) but I don't recall the thread.