Technical Panda Pop 2016 engine lights etc

[ColinN]

I have a 2016 Panada Pop which has developed a problem with warnings coming on at or just after startup.
Insert Key, start engine - engine light stay on. Display says 'Check Engine'
After a few seconds ESC lights & Tyre Pressuse lights then engine revs to about 1500rpm (all by itself). If I try to drive it runs like a dog with no power. Garage can't find anything wrong, problem has sometimes cleared before getting to garage.
I have videoed this and put it on Youtube.
Any thoughts?

 

[the green vanper]

Thoughts? Yes, buy MultiEcuScan and the appropriate adapter, or find a forum member with one willing to help in the neighbourhood and check what the engine says to you.

And no, don't try using generic error code readers.

 

[The Panda Nut]

A bit symptomatic of failing battery. If not try all the earts and clean if required

 

[The Panda Nut]

Where are you based?

 

[ColinN]

Thanks to all, have changed the battery and problem seems to have gone away. I noticed that the maximum voltage from the alternator is abot 14.1V, does this mean that the old battery was never reaching full charge? Still not totally convinced it is fixed. With the olf battery, whilst cranking the battery volts dipped (very briefly) to about 7.5V, with the new battery seems to only dip to about 10.5V. I guess at 7.5V the onboard computers are possibly re-booting or being corrupted. Dunno!

 

[ColinN]

Where are you based?

I'm near Fordingbridge SP6 - between Salisbury, Fordingbridge, Southampton, Bournemouth area.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I'm near Fordingbridge SP6 - between Salisbury, Fordingbridge, Southampton, Bournemouth area.

That will help anyone with MES. Have you looked in the MES register. Click on Directory above and its the bottom item on the menu You should then be able to private message someone and hopefully they will be able to plug you in and shed some light. If you are keeping the car its a very good purchase. My latest use was to check the milometer and the ECU registered distance were the same on out latest purchase and un tampered. If doing the battery did the trick be galkd you changed it. My experience is there is little or no warning between the lights appearing and total battery death. I had two batteries die in the sam eweek and one was working OK and then dead. 14.1 is the cars idea of chrging nicley / fully charged and shows a healthy charging system. If the battery is less than 12.4v after a period of rest its not holding charge it is healthy when showing 12.8 or thereabouts. Seems daft when its a 12v battery but AA bateries when you buy them are 1.65v with a nominal of 1.5v . Lots of posts on here about battery issues if you read back or search. Hope its now good for you.

eI'm near Fordingbridge SP6 - between Salisbury, Fordingbridge, Southampton, Bournemouth area.

 

[ColinN]

Further to:
Having replaced the battery I took the car out for a run. Did about 30+ miles, with many stops, reversing. re-starting - perfect! Thought I'd fixed it. Then reversed back into the drive and it was back to the old silly game - lights on, severe limp mode. Re-started - just the engine light on. Went out into the evening traffic and all was OK until I actually had to stop in a queue - then all lights on, revving etc. Re-start and OK until the next traffic stop. Limped home. To me it smacks of on-board computers issues. I will try and go down the route of finding someone locally with the Mes software as recommended by The Panda Nut.

 

[the green vanper]

With the olf battery, whilst cranking the battery volts dipped (very briefly) to about 7.5V, with the new battery seems to only dip to about 10.5V. I guess at 7.5V the onboard computers are possibly re-booting or being corrupted. Dunno!

The critical voltage of a lead acid battery is 10,8 V. Below that the cells are being damaged. I understand that the drop to 10,5 V now is momentary, but still, I'd try to avoid it. Single cell nominal voltage is 2,1 V, there are 6 cells in a car battery, so the nominal voltage of the battery is 12,6 V. And this should be the optimal voltage of a battery in +20 degrees. If it's lower, the battery needs charging.

I assume that your new battery is simply not charged enough. Remember that the alternator is not able to charge the battery properly, as its voltage is limited to 14,4 V only (due to connected equipment). The proper maximum charging voltage changes with temperature.
At +20 degrees it should be 14,4 - 15,0 V.
At around 0 degrees: 15,0 - 15,6 V.
At +55: 13,35 - 13,95 V.

Overvoltage can also lead to cells damage.

Electronic equipment connected to the battery (ie. body, engine, airbag modules) are sensitive to voltage drops. I have no idea what's the exact tolerance, but knowing the alternator is giving 14,4 V max, I assume it is somewhere between 15-20%. Probably both + and -. But it's my assumption only. The airbag module is especially fragile, there are known cases of the module being damaged when disconnecting / reconnecting the battery. There is even a special procedure described in the Ducato manual how to do it properly.

I think that the damaged battery was only one of the problems in your case. I'd really try to connect MES and check what's going on.

 

[ColinN]

The critical voltage of a lead acid battery is 10,8 V. Below that the cells are being damaged. I understand that the drop to 10,5 V now is momentary, but still, I'd try to avoid it. Single cell nominal voltage is 2,1 V, there are 6 cells in a car battery, so the nominal voltage of the battery is 12,6 V. And this should be the optimal voltage of a battery in +20 degrees. If it's lower, the battery needs charging.

I assume the your new battery is simply not charged enough. Remember that the alternator is not able to charge the battery properly, as its voltage is limited to 14,4 V only (due to connected equipment). The proper maximum charging voltage changes with temperature.
At +20 degrees it should be 14,4 - 15,0 V.
At around 0 degrees: 15,0 - 15,6 V.
At +55: 13,35 - 13,95 V.

Overvoltage can also lead to cells damage.

Electronic equipment connected to the battery (ie. body, engine, airbag modules) are sensitive to voltage drops. I have no idea what's the exact tolerance, but knowing the alternator is giving 14,4 V max, I assume it is somewhere between 15-20%. Probably both + and -. But it's my assumption only. The airbag module is especially fragile, there are known cases of the module being damaged when disconnecting / reconnecting the battery. There is even a special procedure described in the Ducato manual how to do it properly.

I think that the damaged battery was only one of the problems in your case. I'd really try to connect MES and check what's going on.

Thank you. I will give the battery a good charge and try again.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Not sure if the Pop uses an intelligent alternator (other models do). That can vary its output voltage depending on engine load as well as battery voltage. At idle it can sit at 12.8v, but on engine over-run (eg downhill with throttle lifted) can briefly deliver a much higher voltage (as high as 17volts). Makes it hard to tell when the car’s on the drive.
(Generally, intelligent alternators are used with stop/start systems, and specifically need an EFB battery to handle the extra loads and occasionally higher charging voltages. A regular battery won’t like it…)

 

[ColinN]

Not sure if the Pop uses an intelligent alternator (other models do). That can vary its output voltage depending on engine load as well as battery voltage. At idle it can sit at 12.8v, but on engine over-run (eg downhill with throttle lifted) can briefly deliver a much higher voltage (as high as 17volts). Makes it hard to tell when the car’s on the drive.
(Generally, intelligent alternators are used with stop/start systems, and specifically need an EFB battery to handle the extra loads and occasionally higher charging voltages. A regular battery won’t like it…)

Thanks for your note. I have checked, the Panda does not have Stop/Start and uses a conventional Lead-acid battery. I have checked the alternator volts and it seems to sit at 14.2v +0/-0.05v: idle/no load/full load - headlights on/ revving etc.
Thinking I might have to bite the bullet and buy the MultiECUScan software.

 

[FiatMatt94]

I had this issue a few times with my Panda before getting rid, first time it was the battery, second time it was a corroded earth strap which goes from the gearbox to the body & the last time when it really threw a wobbler it was an ECU fault where the engine ECU wasn't communicating with the body control module, I didn't really look at the fault code itself as I was just fed up with the car after a multitude of issues over the last 5-6 months, sold it the next afternoon & although I felt a bit sad when I walked away from it as I'd had the car from new, I now feel quite relieved it's gone, in my opinion the previous 169 Panda is a much better car as a family friend has one & I've driven it a few times before, more so over the past week, although the inside isn't as nice it's just generally much simpler & nowhere near as problematic as the 319 Panda

 

[FiatMatt94]

Thanks for your note. I have checked, the Panda does not have Stop/Start and uses a conventional Lead-acid battery. I have checked the alternator volts and it seems to sit at 14.2v +0/-0.05v: idle/no load/full load - headlights on/ revving etc.
Thinking I might have to bite the bullet and buy the MultiECUScan software.

It's the best thing you can get as a Fiat owner, the MultiECUScan is worth every penny as I read somewhere that Fiat charge £120 each time just to connect the diagnostics to the car, the whole kit is £130 so even when you connect it just once its virtually paid for itself

 

[the green vanper]

I had this issue a few times with my Panda before getting rid, first time it was the battery, second time it was a corroded earth strap which goes from the gearbox to the body & the last time when it really threw a wobbler it was an ECU fault where the engine ECU wasn't communicating with the body control module, I didn't really look at the fault code itself as I was just fed up with the car after a multitude of issues over the last 5-6 months, sold it the next afternoon & although I felt a bit sad when I walked away from it as I'd had the car from new, I now feel quite relieved it's gone, in my opinion the previous 169 Panda is a much better car as a family friend has one & I've driven it a few times before, more so over the past week, although the inside isn't as nice it's just generally much simpler & nowhere near as problematic as the 319 Panda

Yes, rotting earth cables and earth points are a common FIAT problem

 

[ColinN]

Looks like changing the battery has now solved the issue. Car now sold, with no errors showing after a few days as we have lost faith in it.

 

[FiatMatt94]

Looks like changing the battery has now solved the issue. Car now sold, with no errors showing after a few days as we have lost faith in it.

It was the same with my Panda, I just lost faith along with interest & it got to the point it was on the driveway more than being driven, I don't regret selling my one but the one thing I really don't miss is the black paint & trying to keep on top of it

 

[jrkitching]

but the one thing I really don't miss is the black paint & trying to keep on top of it

I bought a black car once.

Never again!

 

[FiatMatt94]

I bought a black car once.

Never again!

I say the exact same, it was lovely when polished & waxed but that was always short lived as 10 mins later it was covered in dust again