General Panda not starting - electrical issue?

[iainahay]

Hi all,

I have a 2008 Panda Multijet which I've had since January 2017. I've got an issue where it keeps not starting...

I took it to the garage and they said the found the issue, that the battery was not holding the charge (which I suspect was not true) so they fitted a new one, also fitted new camshaft and crankshaft sensors. But its still happening.

In the morning it starts fine, no issues and runs perfectly, then when you stop and try and start again nothing, it doesn't even try to start.

It's possible to push start it, so I don't think its an issue with the immobiliser which I first suspected. But seems to also happen randomly in that it occasionally starts again after stopping but then the next time not again.

So a couple of questions, looking at other similar threads it could be an earthing issue - but could this still be the case if its starting sometimes and not others?

Also, possibly a loose electrical connection somewhere?

Once it wouldn't start and I turned everything off (I think at the time it was only the lights on) and then started, so I also suspect it may be something is draining the battery when it's off - if this was the case though wouldn't other things be affected? The lights, radio, dash lights etc etc all are totally fine it seems only the starter motor thats not getting any power.

The issue seems to be mainly after its been driven for a bit - annoyingly at the garage by the time they look at it its starting again, but I'm guessing they are just switching it off and on again!

It's in the garage at the moment and they are waiting for the electrician to come and have a look, but its been 3 days not and they keep saying he is coming tomorrow (and then he doesn't ) - can anyone recommend a good garage in North London (or within 40mins or so) that I can take it too? It's currently in a Halfords Autocenter, only because they did the aircon just after it started happening but I'd rather take it to a local garage.

Thanks in advance!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi. The garage who fitted the battery sound clueless.

The mj diesels need quite a few things to be in sync. To run well.

Ideally you want a garage with the correct kit to check sensors etc.

I would look for an independent Alfa Romeo specialist..they should have the correct kit..

But the engine is in LOTS of vehicles ..including Vauxhall

Charlie

 

[koalar]

Am I correct in the starter will not turn the engine over when the engine is hot but the engine will still start via a bump start.

 

[iainahay]

Am I correct in the starter will not turn the engine over when the engine is hot but the engine will still start via a bump start.

So it starts normally 99% of the time when first thing in the morning (after being left over night) then once driven the is when the issue happens, so yes mainly when hot, but sometimes it doesn't always and sometimes will start fine again!

 

[iainahay]

Hi. The garage who fitted the battery sound clueless.

The mj diesels need quite a few things to be in sync. To run well.

Ideally you want a garage with the correct kit to check sensors etc.

I would look for an independent Alfa Romeo specialist..they should have the correct kit..

But the engine is in LOTS of vehicles ..including Vauxhall

Charlie

Thats what I suspected, I spoke to them today and it will be looked at on Friday so will see what they say and then take it somewhere else.

Will have a look for Alfa Romeo specialists, thanks for you help!

 

[koalar]

So it starts normally 99% of the time when first thing in the morning (after being left over night) then once driven the is when the issue happens, so yes mainly when hot, but sometimes it doesn't always and sometimes will start fine again!

When it will not start does it turn over

 

[varesecrazy]

Koalar was asking does it always spin over on the starter motor.. or does it struggle to crank over when its playing up..

Bucks has a few Alfa specialists..

 

[iainahay]

When it will not start does it turn over

No - I get nothing.

I get all the lights on the dash, lights, wipers, radio etc all work but just nothing from the starter motor, doesn't even try.

Thats why I don't believe it was the battery, as when it does it starts perfectly.

I got the old battery back too so will test is and see if there is actually anything wrong with it!

 

[koalar]

Cheers that narrows it down quite a bit.

Starter motor and related wiring.


There was a thread on here with three or four people with this exact problem but no outcome.


Some one changed the stater motor and body computer to no avail

Personly I would suspect the high current part of the relay.
But could be anything from the ignition switch to a bit of corrosion in the fuse box.


Auto election should be able to sort it quite quickly as long as they can make it fail

 

[iainahay]

Thanks Koalar.

I'll see what the garage says and take it to an auto electrician or a specialist and see, but thats helpful incase they try and tell me things it might not be - but will get a second opinion I think regardless after they changed the battery!

I'll post updates as I get them so it can help anyone else!

 

[Kekybobo]

I had a similar experience with my mjet 500. Non starting seemed to be very random and all other electrics worked.

My issue was resolved with a new starter motor.

Before it was replaced I kept a brush shaft in the car and if it didn't start I threaded the shaft thru the wheel arch and hit the starter a good whack. The car would then start. For me this confirmed that the starter was the issue.

On the 500 the starter is at the bottom of the engine block in the centre and just above the exhaust flexi. Without jacking the car you can just about see enough of it to whack with a brush shaft.

 

[varesecrazy]

No - I get nothing.

I get all the lights on the dash, lights, wipers, radio etc all work but just nothing from the starter motor, doesn't even try.

Thats why I don't believe it was the battery, as when it does it starts perfectly.

I got the old battery back too so will test is and see if there is actually anything wrong with it!

See if the dash lights go DIM...As all the battery power tries to crank engine (big effort)
If it doesnt dim you are NOT making an electrical connection...

Good for diagnostics.... also youve not mentioned the cars mileage..

 

[iainahay]

See if the dash lights go DIM...As all the battery power tries to crank engine (big effort)

If it doesnt dim you are NOT making an electrical connection...



Good for diagnostics.... also youve not mentioned the cars mileage..

I'll check the lights on the dash then too, thanks

Mileage is 48k

 

[iainahay]

I had a similar experience with my mjet 500. Non starting seemed to be very random and all other electrics worked.

My issue was resolved with a new starter motor.

Before it was replaced I kept a brush shaft in the car and if it didn't start I threaded the shaft thru the wheel arch and hit the starter a good whack. The car would then start. For me this confirmed that the starter was the issue.

On the 500 the starter is at the bottom of the engine block in the centre and just above the exhaust flexi. Without jacking the car you can just about see enough of it to whack with a brush shaft.

Thanks, I will see if the same happens for me!

What I am not sure about is if it is the wiring to the starter motor, rather than the stator motor itself?

Surely if the starter motor was the issue it would have problems all the time or seem like its struggling to start? When it does start though it does so perfectly!

 

[koalar]

Would be better for a qualified person to see it fail. Should be simple to measure as there isn't many cables involved.


However I wonder if it might just be the ignition switch. Mine none diesel fails to turn over if I turn the key too quickly. Been like that for the last year


Seems like quite a common fault. Unfortunately every thread I have tried goes dead. When you get it sorted some feedback would help others

 

[andydiver]

A common cause for this across all diesel engines is this: bad earth connection. In your case the hot end of the engine earth strap. Undo, inspect and clean all the earth links battery to chassis, chassis to engine ( might be on the gearbox block) and so on. Less common but might be the 12v primary onto the starter. Don't replace anything until you have seen this inspection done.

 

[iainahay]

So an update from the garage...

The auto electrician had a look and found that the wiring to the starter motor was shorting so has bridged the wire - which they say has fixed the issue.

However, they are saying this could happen again and they I need a new starter motor - is this legit or should I get this changed?

I've said no for the time being but potentially will get this done next week (at a different garage I think)

Thanks

Iain

 

[varesecrazy]

So an update from the garage...

The auto electrician had a look and found that the wiring to the starter motor was shorting so has bridged the wire - which they say has fixed the issue.

However, they are saying this could happen again and they I need a new starter motor - is this legit or should I get this changed?

I've said no for the time being but potentially will get this done next week (at a different garage I think)

Thanks

Iain

Hi. Sounds like gobbeldygook to me..

The body of the starter IS THE EARTH..bolted to engine with 3 x bolts.

The main power lead is a heavy copper cable ..direct from battery

There is a small 12 volt signal wire..that switches the starters solenoid.

If its a cable issue..why do you need a starter.. and vice versa..

 

[koalar]

this legit

A damaged wire repaired will stay repaired.

If it had melted they wouldn't have fixed it without changing the cause.

Does it sound legit

Without more information its hard to say.

I would guess they are hedging their bets and if it doesn't fix it move onto the next part.

 

[varesecrazy]

A damaged wire repaired will stay repaired.


I would guess they are hedging their bets and if it doesn't fix it move onto the next part.

Similar to their change of 2x sensors..and the battery..