Technical Panda 750 CLX - Head Gasket blown

[purple haze]

Line up the crank timing marks as well!!

 

[aca]

i still can hear a knocking sound at idlle...
Alterlego

Hi Alterlego......

I think that knocking sound at idle comming from valves adjusting. Think that is a situation because valve adjusting tails is too thin and then you hear the knocking. If you done belt wrong - you will hear lot of terrible noises, like combustions, and engine will try to excape from the engine bay....
So I think you only need valves adjusting....

 

[alterlego]

Doesnt mater how the belt is fitted. on the top wheel(cant think of name) there is usually a small dot of paint. perhaps red. there is a mark on the head to. little chip out of it. line these two up and then fit belt. timing should then be properly adjusted.

If someone has a guide to timing adjustment please upload to help Alterlego.

Thanks CLXCraig!

I also think that it doesnt mater how belt is fitted, all we need to do is to align the mark on the camshaft pulley with the one on the head, a kind of a cut on the metal (chip...right?)
Put the belt with the arrow pointing to front of the car.

Line up the crank timing marks...

Well i made sure that the mark on the flywheel was at Oº (zero degrees), cause i didnt take off the alternator pulley, but i think that doing this is the same as lining up the crank pulley (at 10 o`clock) right?
Isnt this an alternative method for those didnt take off the alternator pulley? (cant undo the 3 bolts from alternator pulley)

After that i set the ignition timing at 2º BTDC with a test light bulb (static method).
Cheers
Alterlego

 

[alterlego]

Hi Alterlego......

I think that knocking sound at idle comming from valves adjusting. Think that is a situation because valve adjusting tails is too thin and then you hear the knocking. If you done belt wrong - you will hear lot of terrible noises, like combustions, and engine will try to excape from the engine bay....
So I think you only need valves adjusting....

Hellooooooo aca:
Its always nice to hear u.
U know, the car now pulls ok, no more loss of power, even when uphill. No mor pinking/detonation also, after setting the ignition timing at 2º BTDC i delayed a bit ignition on the distributor (turned dizzy anti-clockwise - to the front of the car - 1 or 2 mm) and pinking stoped. But that means that the timing is now near 1º BTDC or so...Hum???
I get confused about the timing of panda 750, never saw an engine like this one with only 2ºBTDC... shouldnt it be more like 5ºBTDC?

PS - didnt touch the valves when doing the head gasket, lack of time.
Next job on my schedule. I would apreciate if u have a way of knowing the type (reference) of the 156A400 engine cambelt (i have the gates 5030XS - 104 teeth)
and would the engine even worked if i hade the wrong kind of belt


Cheer aca

Alterlego

sorry: i just realise u already answered part of my question...
tonight i ll make a small video and post it here, for u to hear the engine running

 

[aca]

Hi Alterlego, here is some data and tehnical wiew for your Engine code 156A4000
You can find belt adjusting details and data for the valves gaps (cool state of engine)
See pic below. So you cant look onto yellow marks onto belt. Just look the marks - gaps onto metal wheels and gaps onto metal fixed parts of engine block or head.
I cnt find Part No for belt, but I think its ok as far as engine run or idle. Also I think timing should be larger - even 15 BTDC. In Auto data says 14 BTDC at 1500 RPM (approx 15 BTDC - hot engine). May be somebody else have Auto-data (program) details for you
Cheers
Aca

 

[aca]

Alterlego, see peage No 10 onto this PDF attachment for 750ccm engine.....
Cheers
Aca

 

[alterlego]

Hi aca:
Thanks for the file about electrical components, it will be handy for dismanteling (again) the dizzy. I remember sawing loads of black gunk on top of the "centrifugal advance" square plates with springs attached (sorry, can t remeber name), but they werent seized, so i let them be.
Im almost sure this could cause lack of acceleration response... but surely not at idlle.
The images are very good for changing the cambelt, but i still cant unscrew the 3 bolts on the alternator pulley, so i supose the "screwdriver/pencil inside plug hole technic" its all i got to determinate if the nº 1 piston is at TDC.

Viewing the image with tech data u send, i noticed that i have the NGK plugs with a too big of a gap (i have 0.8 instead of 0.7mm).

I just finished filling in the radiator with some rust cleaner and got my camera to make a video... so u can hear the sound of music later, i mean... sound of disapointement, LOL.
So the car runs ok for about 1 1/2 or 2 hours (maybe more but thats how long i take to get to work). By this time the mechanical fuel pump and the ignition coil are cold.
The car then rests for 2 hours, and if i then try to run the car, it runs ok for half an hour or so and starts to get noisy and lacks in power (not sure the noise comes from the engine or transmission) - if i chek the coil and pump they re very hot. Maybe one of these are culprits???
Next job is mesuring the valve clearences, test the coil and fuel pump. Not sure how to test those last 2.
Cheers
Alterlego

 

[alterlego]

Hi guys:

Can please somebody help me understanding why panda radiator cap works the way it does???

Cause panda seems to get hot, very fast (2 to 5 minutes) and i can feel the heater blowing very hot air, very quickly. (thermo is new; coolant is new; water pump is new also, and no airlock).

Last couple of days when stopping the car i could hear a whistle coming from the radiator cap (too much coolant pressure exiting), so:

1 - if the radiator cap is dead, should it release pressure? or that means that its doing is job?
2 - But too much Pressure means coolant is boilling, maybe because radiator cap cant retain pressure inside, lowering boilling-point (maybe that killed the head gasket).

Never in the past (except before head went) the cap loosed pressure, at least that i could hear, and i never found the culprit that killed the gasket.
Why is it loosing pressure again...schiuffffff.
Cheers (schiufff, schiufff)
Alterlego

 

[aca]

Hi guys:

Can please somebody help me understanding why panda radiator cap works the way it does???

Cause panda seems to get hot, very fast (2 to 5 minutes) and i can feel the heater blowing very hot air, very quickly. (thermo is new; coolant is new; water pump is new also, and no airlock).

Last couple of days when stopping the car i could hear a whistle coming from the radiator cap (too much coolant pressure exiting), so:

1 - if the radiator cap is dead, should it release pressure? or that means that its doing is job?
2 - But too much Pressure means coolant is boilling, maybe because radiator cap cant retain pressure inside, lowering boilling-point (maybe that killed the head gasket).

Never in the past (except before head went) the cap loosed pressure, at least that i could hear, and i never found the culprit that killed the gasket.
Why is it loosing pressure again...schiuffffff.
Cheers (schiufff, schiufff)
Alterlego

Well Alterlego........
First of all I attached two pictures, one for timing adjusting and one for testing ignition coil.
So as per attached pic, ignition coil for your engine code, shoud show following measure (use multimeter-ommeter) 2,4 - 3,3 ohms at primary coil and 3330-4070 ohms (3.3K-4 Kohms) at secondary coil. This is not too hard to check if you have multimeter. (Hot ignition coil seems to be cracked coil)

Second, I suggest to check orientation of your thermostat (may be it is counter oriented) so engine become hot too fast because coolant flow to the radiator is stopped - by wrongly oriented thermostat - they do not open properly (even its new). See pic below
Cheers
Aca

 

[CLXCraig]

You got the right amount of fluid in the system? to much will reduce volume for steam and the only way out is trough the cap. try draining some out and see if it still over heats.

If lead standing in hot weather, i suspect it is where you are! then the engine is going to get hotter faster than before.

 

[alterlego]

Well Alterlego........
First of all I attached two pictures, one for timing adjusting and one for testing ignition coil.
So as per attached pic, ignition coil for your engine code, shoud show following measure (use multimeter-ommeter) 2,4 - 3,3 ohms at primary coil and 3330-4070 ohms (3.3K-4 Kohms) at secondary coil. This is not too hard to check if you have multimeter. (Hot ignition coil seems to be cracked coil)

I dont have a stroboscopic timing light to set the ignition in a dynamic way, so i did it in static mode (engine stoped, so no need to plug vacuum advance tube) set it to 2º BTDC.

Second, I suggest to check orientation of your thermostat (may be it is counter oriented) so engine become hot too fast because coolant flow to the radiator is stopped - by wrongly oriented thermostat - they do not open properly (even its new). See pic below
Cheers
Aca

Hi aca:

Just read your post:
Right now i dont have the multimeter at home but tomorrow i ll get it and mesure the coil... i also think this could be the culprit cause the engine is only malfunctioning when warmed.
I never, ever thought that thermostat could be fitted counter orientated, as the heater was blowing very hot air, i never suspect the thermostat could be fitted wrongly. Also the radiator top hose starts to become very hot just before the fan kicks in. so it must be right, but cant remember to even take that precaution when installing it.
Ill give it a go, ill need to take it off anyway to flush the system.
Thanks
Sorry being such a problematic panda owner...lol
Cheers
alterlego

 

[alterlego]

Hi CLXCraig:

You got the right amount of fluid in the system?
to much will reduce volume for steam and the only way out is trough the cap. try draining some out and see if it still over heats.

I gotta run the car for 100 kms before flushing out the cooling system cleaner i put inside radiator yesterday. but i remember having the same problem (quantity) of coolant that the system needs. I read somewhere is 5.5 liters to fill it up. I could never fill it with more than 4, wich i presume must mean that there is an airlock inside (even considering the top hose is empty when bleeding sytem).
Or im completely wrong about the 5.5 lts to fill...???!!!

If lead standing in hot weather, i suspect it is where you are! then the engine is going to get hotter faster than before.

[/quote]
strangely, today was 34ºc and the bonnet wasnt even warm when i arrived home from work. but i dont have an engine temp sensor just the too late show light! (and no spare wheel under hood:idea
Cheers
alterlego

 

[alterlego]

Hi guys:
The engine idlle is too lumpy (i mean the rpm seems to go up and down constantly), i made a small video last night and im trying to upload it, that way you will be able to listen to engine and give me some input... (i mean, some more... cause u`ve been restless - is this a word ? - helping me).

Here s the mineral oil 1 week after changing the head gasket...seems ok (15w-40 mineral)

Spark plug colour seems to be too white...ish - lean mixture? (NGK-BCPR6E-gap 0.8mm)

I miss driving the "flaming red" around not being afraid that she could brake down at any moment... Nowadays i dont drive her for more than 1 hour or so. Thats not fair...

Cheers
alterlego

 

[alterlego]

http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/AlterLego/
http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/AlterLego/
Hi ppl:
Im having trouble uploading the video into photobucket. so i reduce the damn thing and now is 1Mb. although it seems to be accepting the WMV file into server, returns a error message. Not my day today.
I really wanted you to listen to pandas engine, thus helping me sorting the problem.
Ill keep you posted
cheers
alterlego

PS- shame on me, just realise that is possible to attach files directly in the fiat forum...duhhhhhhh:bang:

 

[arc]

when the head was skimmed, was the camshaft removed? If it was, have the shims gone back in the correct place. They wear at different rates and it is important that the clearances between the shim and the camshaft are correct.

with regards to timing, have a read of this. different car but the engine is essentailly the same; https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-guides/100553-cam-belt-change.html

 

[alterlego]

when the head was skimmed, was the camshaft removed? If it was, have the shims gone back in the correct place. They wear at different rates and it is important that the clearances between the shim and the camshaft are correct.

Hi arc:
Thanks for your post, and no i didnt remove de camshaft, ill do it next saturday cause im going to set the valve clearences. But i noticed last night when doing the video that the pulley seems out of centre when turning around (maybe its an optical ilusion), what i mean is: at idle, the centre bolt on the cam pulley seems to wobble a bit.

Cheers
Alterlego

 

[aca]

I see (hear) your video Alterlego. Definitely there is some Italian - Lamborghini spirit in your Panda CLX Engine

Definitely I think valves (shims) should be adjusted. Think there is a larger gap between camshaft and valve adjusting shims inlet and outlet too- and think because of that you can hear that ``chain rotate`` sound. Acceleration response is close to Lamborghini engine, but definitely you have cam-belt not a cam-chain transmition.

I think in Portugal there is lot of SEAT Marbella, so may you can try in to adjust valves in some Marbella garage specialist......think it wouldnt be too expensive

Cheers Lambo-spirit one
Aca

 

[xsparky]

Hi Alterlego, yes your plugs do seem to indicate lean running - possibly an air leak which might also account for the poor idle - did you remember to reconnect the vacuum tube on the dizzy? Are all the plugs the same colour?

Mike

 

[pandamaniac]

Don't know if you are aware of it, but it is common for Pandas to lose compression on No 1 pot through valve wear in their seats.

A lower compression on 1 pot will cause a lumpy idle and is fairly common.

The idle consistency improves once the engine is warmed up to operating temperature.

This is also the same cylinder that tends to go when the head gasket goes.

Pandamaniac

 

[alterlego]

...The idle consistency improves once the engine is warmed up to operating temperature.
This is also the same cylinder that tends to go when the head gasket goes.

Hi pandamaniac:
Yes that was nº 1 cylinder ring (in the gasket) that broke down. But whats strange is that idle consistency seems to be worst when engine warmed up.

...lean running - possibly an air leak which might also account for the poor idle - did you remember to reconnect the vacuum tube on the dizzy?

Hi Xsparky:
I doubt there is an air leak cause all gaskets are new and well bolted. The vacuum hose is connected and without cracks. All spark plugs are the same colour.

Think there is a larger gap between camshaft and valve adjusting shims inlet and outlet too- and think because of that you can hear that `chain rotate` sound.

Hi aca:
i wish i had a lambo (a miura would be nice), and no garage expert around, but maybe ill go to fiat dealer (just must make sure dont let the car out of my sight, cause sometimes they dont do a thing and charge u for valve clearence adjust - happen to a friend of mine).
Or, ill do it myself on saturday, how hard could it be??? Sorry about the video upload but i didnt remeber taking the camera home last night and i have a upload limit (1Mb) here at work. This bigger video i made has captured a very loud metalic knocking sound when engine is turned off. I mean is the last thing i hear when engine movement stops, and its quite creepy to listen - sounds like somebody hits the engine with a hammer just when engine movement stops... PLIM!!! - not so loud if i press clutch pedal down...lol - (will upload it tonight).

Sorry know this takes forum space, but i need to brighten my day and ya`ll (is this a word?)
Cheers
alterlego