General Panda 4x4s easily stolen (midlands UK)

[chris3234]

OBD port switching isn't delicate. They are just wires, as long as you don't cross them, then cutting a wire and putting a switch in isn't going to cause a world of problems any more than the connectors on each end of those wires.

Best to look at the Pin out for the port and pick an appropriate wire that would isolate the lines that carry data, rather than power or ground.

Something like a Dip switch would be perfectly adequate. A micro switch tends to be a momentary switch only making contact when pressed, so maybe not what you want.
I know several people who have done this with no ill effects.

Even then, this doesn't stop someone lifting it and the majority of these cars are stolen for parts, if they can't get it to start it will become a parts car pretty quickly anyway.

I remember in my LandRover days the LandRover magazines used to have adverts for a post that you would concrete into the ground then you would literally lock your car to the post to stop someone moving it off the drive.

You'd probably not even need to do anything to the can wires
The 12v feed to the obd port would likely be enough and not likely to cause can issues as the 12v is usually fuse protected and I doubt the ob port fuse being broken would cause serious issues

 

[AndyRKett]

Actually CAN wires are just NOT wires. They are a balanced and impedanced balanced/terminated communications highway. CAN Hi and CAN Lo plus possibly other on other cars.

Whilst wires (either twisted pairs or parallel) look and seem disturbable this is not always the case. I would just say CAUTION is required before tapping into any of the vehicles CAN / other interfaces. Personally I would not risk it.

The Fiat Stilo was one of Fiats 1st vehicles to adopt / use CAN and many dealers had big issues with problems where independent companies hand added alarm systems onto the CAN / Other signal lines. On the Stilo Abarth a common related issues was the Selespeed gearbox/system then not functioning correctly. FACT.

I would just suggest people be very cautious before tapping into modern vehicle communications paths/systems.

I dispute this, the early 90s fiats were the first to use canbus in one form or another, mk1 Punto,brava/bravo/marea coupe etc, they certainly had canbus on cars way before the stilo came along in the early 2000s

Yes I agree people hacking incompatible kit into the canbus system can cause all sorts of problems but we are talking about a switch in the OBD port lines you’ll see if you look at an OBD port there are loads of wires not just canHi and CanLo

They are not highly attenuated signal lines they are pretty low speed, small packet data lines which are massively robust, they are terminated with a 120ohm resistor to stop signals bouncing up and down the wire but the system is designed to be in a vehicle where everything is moving and jiggling as the car goes down the road, the system can cope with a certain amount of redundancy and can still work even if come wires before disconnected. They are very resistant to noise.
A couple of crappy small gauge wires are perfectly adequate for bench testing Canbus. Just open up an elm plug and see no shielding or care taken with the wires they jam in them.

I worked for Fluke in the early 2000s we designed and made the equipment used on car production lines to read these signals with a clamp meter around a bundle of wires, literally reading signals from multiple lines without plugging in. Then we stuck Bluetooth in those probes so they could move down the production line testing the car without needing to trail wires.

 

[vexorg]

I'd have thought the fiat badge on the front would be deterrent enough

 

[porta]

I'd have thought the fiat badge on the front would be deterrent enough

You could have said that about Lancia but Deltas (of all types) and Beta Coupes and HPEs were being nicked at rates that the Uno Turbo and 130 were disappearing…
The Panda has always been a favourite to nick, wehn JCT started employing ex-cons, as part of a g’ment rehabilitation programme, I asked a prolific car thief ‘why pandas?’, he said ‘if you got caught out in the rain on your way home, you’d take a panda over an escort or fiesta as they knew they wouldn’t break down’

 

[s130]

You'd probably not even need to do anything to the can wires
The 12v feed to the obd port would likely be enough and not likely to cause can issues as the 12v is usually fuse protected and I doubt the ob port fuse being broken would cause serious issues

Killing the EOBD port 12V power line and the 0V line (AT THE PORT) I will agree is not going to bother the CAN-Bus and will of course noble and device that wants to connect to the EOBD port.

I/we would need to look more closely at the CAN-Bus and other COMMS with regards to if a 0V/GND connection is required. I say this because a more expensive completely self powered device can/could still be able to send data down the communications wire. Some serial/other COMMS setups use differential changes between two data lines and do not require a ground connection. Also a self powered device would only need to crocodile clip onto any bit of the vehicles chassis it an earth is required.

 

[s130]

I dispute this, the early 90s fiats were the first to use canbus in one form or another, mk1 Punto,brava/bravo/marea coupe etc, they certainly had canbus on cars way before the stilo came along in the early 2000s

Fair and accurate comment Andy. Was not the Stilo the firt Fiat with the more complex Selespeed gearbox that totally relied on serial communications for it's operation. I think the earlier Dual Logic boxes were more self contained for want of a better word.

Yes I agree people hacking incompatible kit into the canbus system can cause all sorts of problems but we are talking about a switch in the OBD port lines you’ll see if you look at an OBD port there are loads of wires not just canHi and CanLo

They are not highly attenuated signal lines they are pretty low speed, small packet data lines which are massively robust, they are terminated with a 120ohm resistor to stop signals bouncing up and down the wire but the system is designed to be in a vehicle where everything is moving and jiggling as the car goes down the road, the system can cope with a certain amount of redundancy and can still work even if come wires before disconnected. They are very resistant to noise.
A couple of crappy small gauge wires are perfectly adequate for bench testing Canbus. Just open up an elm plug and see no shielding or care taken with the wires they jam in them.

Yes these systems are terminated and use a mixute of twisted pair or close/parallel conductors. I would still be vary cautious and my concern was that someone would just splice in, run several feet of cable arounf the house to get the switch to some other remote part of the car well away from the EOBD port.

I worked for Fluke in the early 2000s we designed and made the equipment used on car production lines to read these signals with a clamp meter around a bundle of wires, literally reading signals from multiple lines without plugging in. Then we stuck Bluetooth in those probes so they could move down the production line testing the car without needing to trail wires.

Even twisted pair / balanced lines when close coulped with a clamp/coil will be able to be sniffed and the signal / data read. Been there myself measuring minute signals from hard disk drive heads.

What I hate about the now required security for these modern systems is what Fiat did with the SGW and will become a show stopper for vehicle DIY & Diagnotics when the EU / Other fully encrypted systems come into force.

What they should be doing is ring fencing with encryption those functions that are SECURITY related. e.g. programming keys, engine start/immobilisation etc. Intead the SGW kills all write / actuator functions and even Service resets and Error Code/Fault reseting.

 

[chris3234]

Killing the EOBD port 12V power line and the 0V line (AT THE PORT) I will agree is not going to bother the CAN-Bus and will of course noble and device that wants to connect to the EOBD port.

I/we would need to look more closely at the CAN-Bus and other COMMS with regards to if a 0V/GND connection is required. I say this because a more expensive completely self powered device can/could still be able to send data down the communications wire. Some serial/other COMMS setups use differential changes between two data lines and do not require a ground connection. Also a self powered device would only need to crocodile clip onto any bit of the vehicles chassis it an earth is required.

Fair and accurate comment Andy. Was not the Stilo the firt Fiat with the more complex Selespeed gearbox that totally relied on serial communications for it's operation. I think the earlier Dual Logic boxes were more self contained for want of a better word.

Yes these systems are terminated and use a mixute of twisted pair or close/parallel conductors. I would still be vary cautious and my concern was that someone would just splice in, run several feet of cable arounf the house to get the switch to some other remote part of the car well away from the EOBD port.

Even twisted pair / balanced lines when close coulped with a clamp/coil will be able to be sniffed and the signal / data read. Been there myself measuring minute signals from hard disk drive heads.

What I hate about the now required security for these modern systems is what Fiat did with the SGW and will become a show stopper for vehicle DIY & Diagnotics when the EU / Other fully encrypted systems come into force.

What they should be doing is ring fencing with encryption those functions that are SECURITY related. e.g. programming keys, engine start/immobilisation etc. Intead the SGW kills all write / actuator functions and even Service resets and Error Code/Fault reseting.

Only issue with that somebody would likely find away around to the security protected parts going through the other nodules as it's all part of the can network

 

[s130]

Only issue with that somebody would likely find away around to the security protected parts going through the other nodules as it's all part of the can network

Yes but the slight difficulty is that it is really only the EOBD port that a) wires are more accessible and identifiable by the EOBD standard pinouts and b) elsewhere you would need more detailed eletrical diagrams and c) wires buried in a loom would also need more information e.g. colour code identification.

 

[AndyRKett]

Yes but the slight difficulty is that it is really only the EOBD port that a) wires are more accessible and identifiable by the EOBD standard pinouts and b) elsewhere you would need more detailed eletrical diagrams and c) wires buried in a loom would also need more information e.g. colour code identification.

Did you see in the news recently, particular luxury cars like rolls Royce and Ferrari, are being targeted by thieves who access hidden ports near the headlights on some cars or the can network connected to the headlight modules they can then pop the locks electronically without even having to gain access to the OBD port

 

[chris3234]

Did you see in the news recently, particular luxury cars like rolls Royce and Ferrari, are being targeted by thieves who access hidden ports near the headlights on some cars or the can network connected to the headlight modules they can then pop the locks electronically without even having to gain access to the OBD port

This is the sort of thing I mean hence the news for full encryption of all the can network including service functionsas much as it may cause issues with DIY services


Just need affordable way for not garages to access basic function and limit key coding ect to registered dealers and auto locksmith ect

 

[s130]

Did you see in the news recently, particular luxury cars like rolls Royce and Ferrari, are being targeted by thieves who access hidden ports near the headlights on some cars or the can network connected to the headlight modules they can then pop the locks electronically without even having to gain access to the OBD port

Nothing surprises me.

I'm guilty of hacking In the past I've designed my own house alarm systems. In the end not really worth it so in previous two houses have purchased commercial and installed myself. When I moved to my current house the alarm system was installed and maintained by a national/world wide security company. I didn't want their expensive monthly contract and despite the previous owners having purchased and owned the system the security company held and would not release the manager and engineer codes.

Red rag to a bull so I figured out how the crack the system and take full control. Then updated system with 3G/4G personal remote monitoring.

With the large sums of money involved with car theft, even for spares, the criminals will make it their "red rag" to work out how to take control. Last resort being full vehicle lift and straight into a shielded container and back off to base. In fact I suspect this is what they do in the first instance to get their hands on a target vehicle/make and then take their time to figure it all out. Once done (e.g. your headlights port access) they then just toolup and go fishing.

I wonder how many medievil men/women figured out how to unlock chastity belts

 

[Zootalaws]

To prevent unwanted OBD activity, just stick a switch on Pin 5 (signal ground) or pin 16 (12V+) of the back of the obd2 connector to isolate the pins. It's going to be invisible to the other components on the CANBus itself and thus won't affect any other operation. Don't earth pin 16 or you'll have to jump-start your car every morning.

My Dad used to do a similar thing before the advent of computerised ignitions - just wired a switch to earth the coil on his unlockable MG/Austin/Morris soft-tops back in the 70s. While the ignition is off, nothing is affected, if they hot-wire it or bust the key, all they will do is run the battery flat.

Can is a well-documented control bus. It's no more complicated than 1970s-era computer networking where the ends had to be terminated with a resistor. Luckily, the ends of the network are well documented and well-hidden from the vagaries of DIY. You can add any number of non-CAN-equipped devices, as long as you use designated accessory wiring.