babbo_umbro
Established member
Yes there are - live for the day. (Left childhood in legal sense about 50 years ago, haven't left it in any other way.)
General Panda 4x4
- Thread starter catnash
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General
Panda 4x4
Yes there are - live for the day. (Left childhood in legal sense about 50 years ago, haven't left it in any other way.)
elation
New member
I had an interesting day with my 4x4 on Jan 1st. Decided to go to the local country park with friends, for a walk to blow the cobwebs out.
The carpark was full, and the field that is used as an overflow is notoriously bad when its been wet, always slippy and lots of cars struggle. I pulled on and parked. Then I saw a BMW struggling lots. Feeling helpful, I decided to show off, and drove about a bit, with the wheels slipping but making good progress. Then I parked again.
My friend arrived in their VW Transporter, pulled on to the field, and stopped. Dead. The wheels were spinning and it was going nowhere. We tried to push, pull etc, but to no avail. Feeling optimistic, I tried to tow him with the Panda. It did look very silly trying to drag a LWB van, but had a very good go. Unfortunately the wheels on the VW were too deep and couldn't get enough pull on it to free it. The fact it was a demo also stopped me from trying my hardest, as I didnt want to strain it too much. But I was fairly happy with how it performed. Far better than the big butch expensive looking 62reg Nissan Navara, that couldn't get up the field to him after offering a tow. Cue embarrassed looking man.
Next to try was a Landrover Defender. This faired no better than me, wheels slipping and sliding and van not going anywhere. At this point I called my mate who has a Defender with a winch. When he arrived, he was able to stay on the hardstanding and drag the van out without much incident.
Shortly after, my little girl decided she needed a wee. She was already in the car, so I jumped in and whizzed up to the corner of the field to find a tree. I did find a tree, but only behind a sizeable boggy area. By the time I realised it was too late, and I got well stuck. So I got winched out too. Which was embarassing.
So, all in all, the Panda did very well, the locking diff and traction control worked admirably, but if there's no grip there's not a lot you can do. I would say it will go pretty much anywhere if there is grip though, based on what I've seen. In Top Gear mag, they have taken a new 4x4 Diesel up the side of Etna, and only got stuck in some snow. Again, you need grip to get anywhere.
For reference, my mate's defender very nearly got stuck on the field aswell, and that had BF Goodrich All Terrain proper off road tyres on it.
Lost my bloody tow eye cover though
The carpark was full, and the field that is used as an overflow is notoriously bad when its been wet, always slippy and lots of cars struggle. I pulled on and parked. Then I saw a BMW struggling lots. Feeling helpful, I decided to show off, and drove about a bit, with the wheels slipping but making good progress. Then I parked again.
My friend arrived in their VW Transporter, pulled on to the field, and stopped. Dead. The wheels were spinning and it was going nowhere. We tried to push, pull etc, but to no avail. Feeling optimistic, I tried to tow him with the Panda. It did look very silly trying to drag a LWB van, but had a very good go. Unfortunately the wheels on the VW were too deep and couldn't get enough pull on it to free it. The fact it was a demo also stopped me from trying my hardest, as I didnt want to strain it too much. But I was fairly happy with how it performed. Far better than the big butch expensive looking 62reg Nissan Navara, that couldn't get up the field to him after offering a tow. Cue embarrassed looking man.
Next to try was a Landrover Defender. This faired no better than me, wheels slipping and sliding and van not going anywhere. At this point I called my mate who has a Defender with a winch. When he arrived, he was able to stay on the hardstanding and drag the van out without much incident.
Shortly after, my little girl decided she needed a wee. She was already in the car, so I jumped in and whizzed up to the corner of the field to find a tree. I did find a tree, but only behind a sizeable boggy area. By the time I realised it was too late, and I got well stuck. So I got winched out too. Which was embarassing.
So, all in all, the Panda did very well, the locking diff and traction control worked admirably, but if there's no grip there's not a lot you can do. I would say it will go pretty much anywhere if there is grip though, based on what I've seen. In Top Gear mag, they have taken a new 4x4 Diesel up the side of Etna, and only got stuck in some snow. Again, you need grip to get anywhere.
For reference, my mate's defender very nearly got stuck on the field aswell, and that had BF Goodrich All Terrain proper off road tyres on it.
Lost my bloody tow eye cover though
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What tyres does it have?
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The one in Swansea had cross contact as deeyup stated.
Finally getting back on the bike and the 4x4 would be ideal as I could get into Brechfa more, there's a few very extreme tracks in there, trouble is I'd probably damage it. it would have been great a few years ago most of the tracks were covered in snow, made biking fun let alone what I could do in the 4x4.
Finally getting back on the bike and the 4x4 would be ideal as I could get into Brechfa more, there's a few very extreme tracks in there, trouble is I'd probably damage it. it would have been great a few years ago most of the tracks were covered in snow, made biking fun let alone what I could do in the 4x4.
elation
New member
Yep, Conti Cross contacts. Unfortunately, when you fill them with mud, they're as slick as anything else filled with mud.
Got to take issue with you on this. I think the increase in 4X4 sales is down to two main reasons. PCPs and plain old fashioned vanity.We want a good ride height for the better visibility: it's great to see over roundabouts and through other cars' windscreens at the view ahead etc., and it is easier - much - to get in and out of a car if the seat is at a sensible height. Getting up off a car seat that is about a foot off the ground, plus having to negotiate a curb just outside the car, is just plain difficult. I hate travelling in low built saloons, really hate it. In fact I feel buried. I won't have a low sofa because getting off low furniture is hard, so why would I want to have to heave mysef up off a low seated car?
The 4x4 aspect is irrelevant for most people. In the old days practically the only cars that were built low were sports cars, and that for the supposed handling benefits. Then they started pretending that all cars were 'sporty', and so cars got lower. Finally there is a revolt going on (I hope) and there is a move towards crossovers, SUVs, call them what you will, but I call them sensible easily accessible cars. Okay, the makers think they are trying to offer the illusion of escape and advenure, or whatever the advertisiig gurus come up with, but for me and many others they are simply gving us sensible cars again.
The beauty of the 4x4 Panda is not the transmission, rather the increased height, offering better visibility and far easier access. Apparently VW is going to give us a jacked-up Up too. That would be the one to have because the current one is just too low.
I hope this explains why people like cars tat look like 4x4s, they just don't care about the driven wheels (although some think this helps in winter), they want the comfort and amenity
PS. With the awful deteriorating roads we have a greater ground clearance and beefed up suspension is an added bonus.
It wasn't that long ago when that market was split into two main sections: The "luxo" Range Rover end of things and the more utilitarian Defender/HiAce type of vehicle. Along with more and more X5/ML/Q7/Discovery kind of vehicles on the market, and more and more lease and PCP arrangements available these expensive cars became more affordable. Then take all the plumbers/joiners/flaggers and the like who used to buy their own second hand car and then a "works" van and offer them a crew cab 4X4 like a Nissan Navaro or a Ford Ranger or Mitsubishi L200 instead.
Those kind of vehicles offer air conditioning, leather upholstery and alloys on a nice 3 year contract lease and you can let the taxpayer pick up a sizable chunk of your private motoring costs.
Add the X3/Q5/Freelander into the mix along with PCPs then that all helps make them more affordable as well.
Then comes vanity, or is it a desire (in the case of men anyway) to look more butch? Some friends of ours have a Defender SWB, but they live almost at the end of a road in Upper Hayfield in Derbyshire. After another 200 yards the road ends and Kinder Scout begins. Others we know have a Discovery but they are farmers and like the 3.5 tonnes it can pull. Some of our neighbours also have a Disco but they have a 6.3 mtr. Humber RIB which they keep at home and launch from a wet slipway. Other than those, there can't be many who actually need a 4X4 rather than want one.
To take the vanity hypothesis to it's extreme, a few years ago I was in New York and passed a parked Ford F-150 pick up. It carried New York plates and was fitted with large chrome alloys and low profile tyres.....it also had a rifle rack in the rear window!
Actually, that wasn't the extreme. A week later we were in Charleston South Carolina and saw a Chevrolet pick-up, also with a rifle rack in the back window - and a pump action shotgun and a bolt action rifle resting in it.
Urban hunters? Or Walter Mitty's who are just asking for his weapons to join the millions of stolen firearms circulating the U.S.
I read that. In fairness, although driving up a volcano my seem extreme, several hundred thousand Italians live up unmade tracks which is why cars like the Panda 4X4 became so popular.
We have some friends who live near Sienna in Tuscany. A few years ago we visited them and gave one of their sons a lift into Sienna in exchange for directions. On the way, we stopped off to pick up one of Romeo's (eat your heart out Mr. Beckham, you were beaten to it there) mates who lived in an enclave of about a dozen houses. The last 300 yards of the road was completely unmade and our rented Chevrolet (reasonably priced car) Lacetti creaked alarmingly as it ground over the stones. There are a lot of people who live in areas like that.
Although it wasn't Etna, about 20 years ago my parents were walking up the last bit of Vesuvius when my mother slipped and broke her ankle. Some people helped my dad get mater back to the coach while other went to tell the driver in the hope he could help get her to hospital. When they were still a long way from the coach park they were met with the sight of 12metres of IVECO coach, hazard lights a-flashing reversing up the track towards them.
Everyone piled on and after dropping the parents at hospital the driver took everybody else back to their hotels. After my mum had her ankle set they went outside to look for a phone to call a taxi and, there it was.....12 metres of IVECO coach complete with driver Angelo. He took them to a restaurant and waited while they ate (it was his parent's restaurant) where afterwards my dad had to fight to pay the bill. Angelo's mum kept refusing to give a bill.
Driving a Panda 4X4 forwards up Etna may have been hard, but perhaps not as hard as reversing 15 tons of coach up Vesuvius.
You're both probably right. It's vanity/fashion and easy availabilty, but probably also people don't care about the 4WD aspect. Certainly I like the Panda for it's 'seat height', but I'd like the 4x4 for it's seat height AND resale value.
The new Dacia Duster 4x2 and Panda Trekking are perfect examples of show versus go. However, in a year or two's time it'll be interesting to see:
1. How many 4x2 vs 4x4 models sold
2. The comparative resale value of 4x2 vs 4x4
The one thing that 4x4s have always had is that extra ability to hold their value. Look at any 2001 Kia or Hynundai that ain't a 4x4 and you can buy one with your dinner money.
I think the 4X4 that isn't sort of backs up my vanity contention. If someone wants a 4X4 because it looks butch but don't want the attendant higher fuel costs, not to mention the aprobrium of Friends of the Earth members.
I've said it before that most qashqai are 2wd. A quick look on auto trader shows there are 3226 for sale today. Put 4x4 in the keywords box and the number drops to 102.
So what's that, 3% are 4x4?
It does demonstrate that people want the look, but don't want to pay the extra £1500 or so for the 4wd.
Indeed the new panda trekking is exactly the same. If I wanted to buy a 4wd it would add £1500 to my bill (or £30 a month to payments) plus an extra £20 fuel a month.
All, so I can drive in the snow for the one week a year if indeed we do get snow?
I suppose at least the trekking gets a trick diff which qashqai or kuga don't.
I think most cars are bought out of vanity anyway. Why buy a 500 when you can have a panda? Especially the last model panda which was massively cheaper than the 500. There's 741 pandas up to 5 years old on auto trader, and 2675 500's
So what's that, 3% are 4x4?
It does demonstrate that people want the look, but don't want to pay the extra £1500 or so for the 4wd.
Indeed the new panda trekking is exactly the same. If I wanted to buy a 4wd it would add £1500 to my bill (or £30 a month to payments) plus an extra £20 fuel a month.
All, so I can drive in the snow for the one week a year if indeed we do get snow?
I suppose at least the trekking gets a trick diff which qashqai or kuga don't.
I think most cars are bought out of vanity anyway. Why buy a 500 when you can have a panda? Especially the last model panda which was massively cheaper than the 500. There's 741 pandas up to 5 years old on auto trader, and 2675 500's
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gar074
Prominent member
But they'll get that anyway, as such people tend to make their judgments based on external appearances, and don't spend their evenings poring over the motoring press and the manufacturers' websites, i.e. if something looks like a 4x4, it must by definition be the Spawn of Satan, irrespective of its actual emissions, mpg, green credentials, etc etc.
Dammit, even a dyed-in-the-wool petrol-head would be hard-pressed to tell, from external appearances, whether an Evoque, Sportage or Yeti is a 4x4 or a 4x2!
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I'm hoping to use the I-could-just-buy-a-cheaper-Trekking option (as well as going to another dealer) to try for at least something off the price of a 4x4.
I hear all the arguments for 2wd cars and for those that look like they might be 4x4s but aren't. If I wanted a 2wd it would be with 2wd looks! Okay the Panda blurs things a bit on that front, but i don't quite get the same emotion response to a 2wd Panda as i do to the 4x4. There's just something so exceptionally cool and wonderful and desirable about a cute little proper 4x4 FIAT.
Oh - and the demo car HAS arrived in Salisbury and now they are actively calling me!!
I hear all the arguments for 2wd cars and for those that look like they might be 4x4s but aren't. If I wanted a 2wd it would be with 2wd looks! Okay the Panda blurs things a bit on that front, but i don't quite get the same emotion response to a 2wd Panda as i do to the 4x4. There's just something so exceptionally cool and wonderful and desirable about a cute little proper 4x4 FIAT.
Oh - and the demo car HAS arrived in Salisbury and now they are actively calling me!!
It's all emotions isn't it
For the FIATs, or the people reading this who own them, yes.It's all emotions isn't it
The best selling cars are the Fiesta and Corsa - have been for years. That's nothing to do with emotions at all. They're competent vehicles, but even when they were dire, people still bought them. It'll never change.
I see the attraction of the Trekking and the point about snow. But I still reckon the 4x4 will hold its value, it has to for Woodleigh's sake!
Ford and Vauxhall give whopping discounts to fleets and there is a misguided feeling that these are British cars, when in fact the parent companies are American.
A colleague has a Fiesta Titanium with a boot that pops open when it feels like it, she has to get out at roundabouts and in traffic to close the thing. Yes, it can be fixed, but the gearbox is crap too, and there are other problems, so new Fords are no better than the rest. Corsas? The same.
I reckon the Trekking will hold its value as well as the 4x4, because the lower running costs will swing it for many people who don't need 4x4 but appreciate more wading and speed bump ability.
A colleague has a Fiesta Titanium with a boot that pops open when it feels like it, she has to get out at roundabouts and in traffic to close the thing. Yes, it can be fixed, but the gearbox is crap too, and there are other problems, so new Fords are no better than the rest. Corsas? The same.
I reckon the Trekking will hold its value as well as the 4x4, because the lower running costs will swing it for many people who don't need 4x4 but appreciate more wading and speed bump ability.
I'm unsure about residuals at the moment. Back 3 or 4 years ago you could buy a new 1.2 4x4 for just over £7000. Used ones were depreciating the same as the 2wds from what I remember.
Then winter 2010/11 came with the snow. This was just after Fiat UK stopped importing the cross and 1.2. Demand soared and so did prices.
I remember looking in glasses guide and the cross going up £1500 in one month
Now we have the new model available to anyone who'll pay, demand can be met again.
Saying that though, they may not sell many 4x4 at minimum price tag £14k. So demand on the used market may still outstrip supply??
I think the biggest cause of depreciation is going to be if Fiat start offering substantial discounts on new, or just like I've found with my 500, start selling bucket loads of them as pre-reg or ex Fiat cars to Motorpoint et al.
Hopefully the 4x4 and trekking will remain niche products with low volume sales and used values will remain strong. Only time will tell.
Then winter 2010/11 came with the snow. This was just after Fiat UK stopped importing the cross and 1.2. Demand soared and so did prices.
I remember looking in glasses guide and the cross going up £1500 in one month
Now we have the new model available to anyone who'll pay, demand can be met again.
Saying that though, they may not sell many 4x4 at minimum price tag £14k. So demand on the used market may still outstrip supply??
I think the biggest cause of depreciation is going to be if Fiat start offering substantial discounts on new, or just like I've found with my 500, start selling bucket loads of them as pre-reg or ex Fiat cars to Motorpoint et al.
Hopefully the 4x4 and trekking will remain niche products with low volume sales and used values will remain strong. Only time will tell.
You're right when you mention supply and demand as that is the raison d'etre for strong residuals. They sell a hell of a lot more 3-Series BMWs in the UK than they do Pandas, yet the residuals are still really strong.
Heavy discounting at the front end can affect residuals but only against list price, not the actual price you pay after discount.
If you start with a £25K Alfa and compare it with a £25K BMW, the Italian will depreciate far more than the German, but then you won't be paying £25,000 for the Alfa. The amount of interest you pay will also be less, especially if you buy an ex Avis Giulietta at auction!
It still a supply and demand situation though because a hell of a lot more people want a 3 series over a panda. I would also think perceived quality helps residuals as you suggest with Alfa versus BMW. Fiat can't compare
The fact that no one else makes an a segment 4x4 car is totally on fiats side though.
The fact that no one else makes an a segment 4x4 car is totally on fiats side though.
I've just checked the Configurator and it now allows City Brake control to be selected with a Twin-Air 4x4 and it is clear about the fold-down passenger seat. I can't recall who kindly pointed out that the options for the flex packs cost less than the whole, but that is still the case by the looks of things!
Anyhow, test drives are now booked in Salisbury, as they have just taken delivery of both a T/A and a Diesel. They can't show me any decent colour samples, but reckon they will be able point out most colours in the show-room and among other pre-delivery customer cars (not 4x4s, obviously!).
Anyhow, test drives are now booked in Salisbury, as they have just taken delivery of both a T/A and a Diesel. They can't show me any decent colour samples, but reckon they will be able point out most colours in the show-room and among other pre-delivery customer cars (not 4x4s, obviously!).
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