It's not likely To have worn out and stop working tbh. Would have to be doing some constantly serious off roading to manage that tbh.
Technical Panda 4X4 Viscous or Solenoid?
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Technical Panda 4X4 Viscous or Solenoid?
It's not likely To have worn out and stop working tbh. Would have to be doing some constantly serious off roading to manage that tbh.
Wait until freezing weather. pour some water on the floor to make puddles. Wait till freezes, drive front wheels onto ice, then wheelspin off
I'm sure that would be most satisfactory
Thanks for the advice! I am sure going to try my Panda on snow and ice this winter. However, it seems we have to wait for quite some time before having sub-zero temp and snow here in the Netherlands. Also, being in the flat country, there is no hills or slopes to try the 4x4. Maybe the only option is to drive to Belgium or Germany to find some hilly roads to test??
I read on the internet that ppl suggest using roller beds under the front tyres to test the VC. However, I have asked several garages in my area, including a Fiat dealer, but none of them have the roller bed.
The only test I have done so far is to lift the panda up on a bridge. When the engine starts and gear in place, all four wheels are turning at the same speed. But that doesn't show anything about how powerful the VC is, though.
What about putting front tyres on wet grass, then accelerate quickly
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I highly doubt it. Easier to change the car
I am disappointed ... :bang:
I thought the main difference should only be the 4x4 coupling in front of the rear differential. Well, the electrial control hardware and software for the coupling must be there, too. But I guess those are the main things to upgrade ... or not?
It's the electrical side which will cause most issues in regards to the canbus system, needs to be factory installed and configured on the software. I also believe the vehicle has to have ESP for the solenoid system.
Thanks for the info!
Is the CANBus hardware still the same in the 51KW 2011 version Panda? Is it only the software that was revised and must be installed in factory??
I am not sure why ESP is a must for the solenoid system. I think the electronically-controlled solenoid valve activation is definitely more compatible with ESP. But that doesn't mean ESP is the prerequisite of the new 4x4 system. Or am I miss anything here?
On those with electronic engagement, the whole rear diff unit is different (if you search this forum you'll find posts with photos). Most of the wiring is in place (it uses the ABS sensors already fitted) but the specific control cables will need adding. And then (as MEP says) you need to get all the parts to talk to each other
Also, there have been several reports on here about the electrical 4x4 system failing. Never known a viscous unit to fail. The only advantage (admittedly it could be a big advantage, but only in rare situations) is that you can have the 'diff lock' with the electrically-engaged 4x4
Edit: Follow this link and you can see the 'new' rear diff direct link to photo note casing split along the length of the car) and a few posts further down (here), a photo of the 2005 diff (casing has removable end plate). The whole casing is very different, and longer towards the front owing to the lack of viscous unit)
Also, there have been several reports on here about the electrical 4x4 system failing. Never known a viscous unit to fail. The only advantage (admittedly it could be a big advantage, but only in rare situations) is that you can have the 'diff lock' with the electrically-engaged 4x4
Edit: Follow this link and you can see the 'new' rear diff direct link to photo note casing split along the length of the car) and a few posts further down (here), a photo of the 2005 diff (casing has removable end plate). The whole casing is very different, and longer towards the front owing to the lack of viscous unit)
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Ah... Thanks a lot for the links to the previous posts and pictures!! Lots of valuable discussions in there!
I also checked the 4x4 owners handbook again, i.e. the section about ABS and ELD. If I understood it correctly, activating the ELD function (available on Cross and 51KW Climbing) only enables the ELD for the rear differentials, but not a lock of the 4x4 coupling??
I used to think that, if the ELD button in the Cross was pushed, the car will have a forced (or full-time?) 4x4 transmission under 30 km/h. Is this correct or not?
The 'message' for me from this thread is that the VC is a far better solution in terms of resilience and overall functionality. Why would you ever want to try to implement the later 'faux' system when evidence suggests it's flawed even from a factory install, let alone a DIY upgrade?
Were it not for the demands of TC, ESP etc, I'm sure VC's would still be the chosen route. I guess cost has a bearing too and suspect that electronics will be much cheaper though.
And I thought that a valid test for VC operation might be to jack both rear wheels off the ground and then turn them both in the same forward direction at the same time. Important to do both, as otherwise the open rear diff will just spin the opposite side backwards (an LSD in the read axle of a RWD car will turn both wheels in the same direction by the way). Assuming that the spinning vanes in the VC causes the silicon to do its warming up magic. But then I thought a bit more and I doubt there'd be sufficient heat generated to make it work. Hmmm.
And another thing - the VW Haldex solution is also electronically controlled and there have been plenty of issues with those too within VAG. You can get modified Haldex ECU's that lock up earlier/differently if you want a different handling balance in Audi TT's, A3's for example. It's only the fully passive VC's like the ones in out earlier 4x4's (and early/mid 90's classic Range Rovers too actually) that can be considered truely resilient.
Progress isn't always forwards...
Phil
Were it not for the demands of TC, ESP etc, I'm sure VC's would still be the chosen route. I guess cost has a bearing too and suspect that electronics will be much cheaper though.
And I thought that a valid test for VC operation might be to jack both rear wheels off the ground and then turn them both in the same forward direction at the same time. Important to do both, as otherwise the open rear diff will just spin the opposite side backwards (an LSD in the read axle of a RWD car will turn both wheels in the same direction by the way). Assuming that the spinning vanes in the VC causes the silicon to do its warming up magic. But then I thought a bit more and I doubt there'd be sufficient heat generated to make it work. Hmmm.
And another thing - the VW Haldex solution is also electronically controlled and there have been plenty of issues with those too within VAG. You can get modified Haldex ECU's that lock up earlier/differently if you want a different handling balance in Audi TT's, A3's for example. It's only the fully passive VC's like the ones in out earlier 4x4's (and early/mid 90's classic Range Rovers too actually) that can be considered truely resilient.
Progress isn't always forwards...
Phil
Thanks Phil. I have no doubt that VC is a more reliable solution. And I like my Panda 4x4 with the VC.
I asked about the electronically-controlled system because I thought it allows the driver to force 4WD (with the ELD button) under 30 km/h. However, I am not sure if this understanding is correct or not.
What I would like to have is a choice to switch on the 4WD, just as the 4WD button in the Suzuki Jimny 1.3 (2005 and later). Actually, I would have gone for the Jimny if only I had the money! It has a low range gear, too.
However, there are several things I don't like about the Jimny, despite its true 4x4 system and off-road performance. For one thing, the 1.3 petrol engine in the Jimny has a much higher RPM than the FIRE engine in Panda. The Suzuki M13A engine has the highest torgue at 4100 RPM and highest hp (80) at 6000 RPM, while for Panda it's 2500 and 5000. I also heard that some Jimny's have the problem of oil leaks.
I read one thread on a Suzuki forum in which the Jimny users compared the RPM of their cars at 100 km/h (62 mph). Most Jimny's get more than 4000 rpm at that speed. That is quite high to me! The engine must be very noisy to run like that.
My Panda 4x4 Climbing has a rpm of about 3000 at 100 km/h, when the surface is level and no head wind.
I asked about the electronically-controlled system because I thought it allows the driver to force 4WD (with the ELD button) under 30 km/h. However, I am not sure if this understanding is correct or not.
What I would like to have is a choice to switch on the 4WD, just as the 4WD button in the Suzuki Jimny 1.3 (2005 and later). Actually, I would have gone for the Jimny if only I had the money!
It has a low range gear, too. However, there are several things I don't like about the Jimny, despite its true 4x4 system and off-road performance. For one thing, the 1.3 petrol engine in the Jimny has a much higher RPM than the FIRE engine in Panda. The Suzuki M13A engine has the highest torgue at 4100 RPM and highest hp (80) at 6000 RPM, while for Panda it's 2500 and 5000. I also heard that some Jimny's have the problem of oil leaks.
I read one thread on a Suzuki forum in which the Jimny users compared the RPM of their cars at 100 km/h (62 mph). Most Jimny's get more than 4000 rpm at that speed. That is quite high to me!
The engine must be very noisy to run like that.My Panda 4x4 Climbing has a rpm of about 3000 at 100 km/h, when the surface is level and no head wind.
All understood. Remember that the passive VC in our cars will do its stuff at any speed and at any revs. Enter a higher speed bend that's slippery and it'll only take a little understeering speed differential to lockup that VC and let you drive clean out. Have dabbled on a makeshift skid-pan and the effect is remarkable.
PG
PG
All understood. Remember that the passive VC in our cars will do its stuff at any speed and at any revs. Enter a higher speed bend that's slippery and it'll only take a little understeering speed differential to lockup that VC and let you drive clean out. Have dabbled on a makeshift skid-pan and the effect is remarkable.
PG
Nice to know that the VC works at all speeds!
I have a question though: if the front wheels slip, the VC locks up but for some reason the rear wheels cannot be turned (for instance, too much friction on the surface under the rear wheels but the front wheels got stuck in a deep ditch but are spinning), will this inability to turn the rear wheels damage the VC?
This won't happen as the VC will actually lock up very quickly - the front wheels never actually get to spin very much before the fluid heats up, does the sticky thing and locks the joint nicely solid. What you describe could happen on a car with mechanically engagable (sp?) 4WD, like most of the cart-sprung predecessors, but then of course you'd have to wait till spinning stops before pushing the lever or pressing the button. That's why VC's are just so cool....
This won't happen as the VC will actually lock up very quickly - the front wheels never actually get to spin very much before the fluid heats up, does the sticky thing and locks the joint nicely solid. What you describe could happen on a car with mechanically engagable (sp?) 4WD, like most of the cart-sprung predecessors, but then of course you'd have to wait till spinning stops before pushing the lever or pressing the button. That's why VC's are just so cool....
Sorry, maybe I didn't explain my question clearly ...
What I meant is whether the VC, the driveshaft and the rear differential will be damaged if the rear wheels cannot be turned, even though power is transmitted to the back.
Or the engine will just stall in this scenario?
So if the front wheels are on ice and the rears on tarmac, you bring up the clutch, the fronts spin momentarily, the VC locks and the car drives forward. If it can't drive forward - say it's roped to a 3-tonne Q7 stuck up to its sills in clag which the little Panda had just driven across for example - then the car simply won't pull forward, same as it you tried to tow a bus on dry tarmac with a Panda. I guess.
So no, I don't believe the VC, rear diff nor prop will be damaged, as your scenario was I think working backwards rather than forwards, if you see what I mean.
Phil
Ah, pretty clear now. Thanks for the example! But I won't even try to use my panda to tow a bus, haha, not even a heavy trailer. :nono:
Actually, my Panda does not have a tow bar installed. When I was choosing my Panda 4x4, I had a few of them with the tow bar installed. However, I decided not to buy one of those because I was afraid they might have been used to tow trailers regularly. If the engine was not maintained correctly, towing trailers could shorten the lifespan of the engine. Especially when buying used cars, I do not want to take any chances.
I see where you're coming from, but the Panda is such a versatile car that a small trailer would do no harm. I have an Ifor Williams 6'x4' with mesh sides and a rear ramp and it's excellent. Empty it weighs about 180kg, which is nothing, and I guess a max of say 200kg contents when it's full, so all up weight of less than 400kg, which is very little really.
Either way, sounds like you have a nice car!
Either way, sounds like you have a nice car!
