Technical Panda 4x4 stiff / tight gear selection

[205dan]

Hi Fiatforum,

So a new issue arose after a couple of hours on the motorway, after leaving the motorway and continuing on A roads I notice the gear selection becoming tigh after 10 minutes I was having to push/pull with force into gear. I let it cool and it improved but now after a short run it comes back.

It is booked into a garage tomorrow. I've asked them to check the gear oil level and the linkage. But I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what it could be?

Car is a 2013 Panda 4x4 with 87000 miles on it. Gearbox oil was changed around 3 years ago. It is a twinair with the 6 speed box.

 

[WitleyPanda]

You check the clutch fluid? leaks under the cylinder? else could be clutch release mechanism, behaving worse as gets hot. Depending on your driving style could be the whole clutch mechanism, but would have thought you should get another 50000+ particularly if they changed the gearbox 3 years ago, assuming they fitted new release bearing, arm etc.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Use the 'Search this forum' box on Panda home page... ( https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/?nojs=1#goto_forumsearch) -- there's a couple of other posts that cover this. One culprit is a rod that the gear selector cables connect to at teh gearbox end, which passes through a casting on the outside of the gearbox. This becomes stiff but reponds to being lubricated. note - it is very unlikely to be the gear lever end... especially if it relates to under bonnet heat.

 

[Panda IIs]

You check the clutch fluid? leaks under the cylinder? else could be clutch release mechanism, behaving worse as gets hot. Depending on your driving style could be the whole clutch mechanism, but would have thought you should get another 50000+ particularly if they changed the gearbox 3 years ago, assuming they fitted new release bearing, arm etc.

I believe RHD cars have cable for clutch release, LHD hydraulics?

There are two cables that form part of the gear linkage along with a couple of rods; I'd interrogate these first. My experience of a 4x4 TA clutch failure is the "bite" getting closer and closer to the floor until nothing at all - do you get a crunching of gears? If not my money would be on the linkage. If it is the clutch then expect the dual mass flywheel (DMF) to need replacing too.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I believe RHD cars have cable for clutch release, LHD hydraulics?

There are two cables that form part of the gear linkage along with a couple of rods; I'd interrogate these first. My experience of a 4x4 TA clutch failure is the "bite" getting closer and closer to the floor until nothing at all - do you get a crunching of gears? If not my money would be on the linkage. If it is the clutch then expect the dual mass flywheel (DMF) to need replacing too.

Other way round - right hand drive cars (UK) have a hydraulic clutch, and LHD a cable. And yes, it's those rods at the end of the cables I was referring to

 

[205dan]

Thank you for the responses.

The gearbox is original it was only the gearbox oil that was replaced as a matter of course 3 years ago at my request.

This car done 87,500 miles and is driven up hill and down dale daily and quite exuberantly, I would not be too surprised if it was the clutch. But my experience of clutch failure is that the biting point gets higher, I believe you Panda II buy I'm interested if anyone can explain how is it that it gets lower?

I have also noticed a slight rattle as I select first, perhaps this could be the dual mass flywheel or clutch plate on it's way out.

The local independent place I took it to say the checked all the linkages, then they spoke to a local gearbox specislist describing the symptoms and they said it could be an internal bearing, cost to fix £800 or a lot more depending what they find... ?

 

[Panda IIs]

Other way round - right hand drive cars (UK) have a hydraulic clutch, and LHD a cable. And yes, it's those rods at the end of the cables I was referring to

Thanks; yep I was too lazy to go and check my own vehicle!

 

[Al D]

205dan maybe put £800 towards another Panda?!

 

[TurboToppolino]

We had the same symptoms last year. ( 500 twin air, 105hp, 6 speed box).Hard to get into gear. It then started to resonate through the dashboard at about 3000rpm.
It was the faulty bearing in the clutch. New clutch and DMF needed. Luckily caught it before any casing damage. If it’s On it’s original Clutch and flywheel at that mileage, you seem to have done well. A lot seem to go at mid 20,000 miles from what i’ve read.

 

[gar074]

If it’s On it’s original Clutch and flywheel at that mileage, you seem to have done well. A lot seem to go at mid 20,000 miles from what i’ve read.

Mid-20s? Really? I'd be interested to see your sources for that claim.

 

[TurboToppolino]

A lot of people i’ve seen with the bearing failure have quoted
mileages of mid to late 20,000 miles. Ours went about 27,000 miles. I looked at one for sale which had clutch and flywheel replaced because of bearing failure. That too was 20 odd thousand miles. Just saying what i’ve seen.
( i must admit I’m assuming the panda in question has a DMF with it being 6 speed?)
Clearly i’ve caused you some offence.

 

[Panda IIs]

A lot of people i’ve seen with the bearing failure have quoted
mileages of mid to late 20,000 miles. Ours went about 27,000 miles. I looked at one for sale which had clutch and flywheel replaced because of bearing failure. That too was 20 odd thousand miles. Just saying what i’ve seen.
( i must admit I’m assuming the panda in question has a DMF with it being 6 speed?)
Clearly i’ve caused you some offence.

Mine went at maybe 43k miles, and as you say symptoms included that nasty rattle/resonance through the gear linkage at lower revs. I have no specific evidence but I suspect issues start with the breakdown of the DMF since it must be working pretty hard managing the natural behaviour of the 360 degree twin! Especially at higher revs keeping in mind how quickly the little beast spins up!

I wasn't offended

 

[WitleyPanda]

Interested that a clutch would go at 20K, was expecting nearer 120K out of a modern clutch plate. Not on Fiat, but a 4x4 had issues where the actuator rod wears hole in arm and therefore changes the bite position to near the floor. Also just read this thread https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/457487-diy-clutch-replacement-2012-1-2-a.html

 

[chris3234]

Interested that a clutch would go at 20K, was expecting nearer 120K out of a modern clutch plate. Not on Fiat, but a 4x4 had issues where the actuator rod wears hole in arm and therefore changes the bite position to near the floor. Also just read this thread https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/457487-diy-clutch-replacement-2012-1-2-a.html

It's not the clutch itself failing it the bearing in the fly wheels


It's seems the originals are rather underspecced that or something with the twinair engine is putting a lot of stress into them

 

[WitleyPanda]

It's not the clutch itself failing it the bearing in the fly wheels


It's seems the originals are rather underspecced that or something with the twinair engine is putting a lot of stress into them

There is no bearing "in " a flywheel. There is a release bearing that actuates the clutch. It's life expectancy much depends on how and how many time the clutch used, rather than distance traveled. If you ride the clutch, accelerate the engine before release, don't engage neutral when stopped etc then you can decrease the life.

 

[chris3234]

There is no bearing "in " a flywheel. There is a release bearing that actuates the clutch. It's life expectancy much depends on how and how many time the clutch used, rather than distance traveled. If you ride the clutch, accelerate the engine before release, don't engage neutral when stopped etc then you can decrease the life.

Yes there is a bearing in dual mass flywheels like those fitted to the twin air engine


Theres an article by Luk here about them

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3Y5JiqihILihhVug-vU-Y-

 

[Panda IIs]

Really interesting article in that link; I'm assuming (from a quick search) that TA has a plain bearing? Shame there's no specific discussion re 360 twins and the challenges they pose!