Technical Panda 4x4 rear wheel alignment? +more

[JayAre]

My 2016 4x4 has:
Front: directional Continental AS Contacts
Rear: asymmetric Continental Winter Cross Contacts (the rear n/s tyre is noticeably more worn on the ‘outside’)

Rears are now almost 9 yo (2015 date mark) and I want the same as the fronts. Also get alignment checked (steering pulling v slightly to the left)
Qs:
1. is rear wheel alignment also adjustable on Panda 4x4s (which Halfords don’t do)
2. if so, is rear wheel alignment even necessary / worthwhile?
3. online tyre prices include “fitting +balancing +new ‘standard’ valves” - does anyone know if TPMS valves are now treated as ‘standard’?
4. car has usual alloys so does anyone know if these tyre companies put balancing weights ‘inside’
Cheers

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

My 2016 4x4 has:
Front: directional Continental AS Contacts
Rear: asymmetric Continental Winter Cross Contacts (the rear n/s tyre is noticeably more worn on the ‘outside’)

Rears are now almost 9 yo (2015 date mark) and I want the same as the fronts. Also get alignment checked (steering pulling v slightly to the left)
Qs:
1. is rear wheel alignment also adjustable on Panda 4x4s (which Halfords don’t do)
2. if so, is rear wheel alignment even necessary / worthwhile?
3. online tyre prices include “fitting +balancing +new ‘standard’ valves” - does anyone know if TPMS valves are now treated as ‘standard’?
4. car has usual alloys so does anyone know if these tyre companies put balancing weights ‘inside’
Cheers

No rear adjustment possible. Uneven wear can be down to incorrect pressure. The CrissContact Winters will be original fit, and may of course have been moved from the front? (Although ideally if only replacing two tyres, these should go at the back, regardless of driven wheels)

there are no TPMS valves on any Panda: it uses standard valves (uses part of the ABS system to detect a significant drop in pressure but will not report a drop of just a few PSI - so cannot substitute regular checks with a pressure gauge)

All weights will be stuck onto the inner surface, some by the spokes and some on the other edge (furthest from the kerb)

Halfords not the cheapest. Try BlackCircles.com (select 'Fully fitted' and they will direct you to a good, local, fitter)

 

[JayAre]

Thanks @Herts Hillhopper that’s great news. I’m glad that there’s no possible adjustment for rear wheel alignment on Pandas - makes matters much simpler +cheaper, only needing to get a front wheel alignment!

Agree the rears must be the originals, and at that age are pretty much end of life (though no visible cracking) and 50k+ miles is frankly astonishing on winter tyres by the previous 1 lady owner - she must have been a very careful driver!

On this age point, I notice KwikFit’s website has this outrageous statement: “Tyres are considered to be ‘new’ and are suitable for retail sale, for up to 5 years from the original date of production”!

Interested (and relieved) to hear that there are no TPMS tyre valves on Pandas, but I’m now intrigued how the system works…! I have chosen not to investigate this system (seems v complicated in the h/book) fearing I might awaken dreaded dash warning lights + an MOT failure. Still, I’ve always done regular visual checks together with pressure checks (with my trusty gauge) and see no reason to change

And thanks for the BlackCircles tip - I was gobsmacked when I reopened the Halfords website today and saw they had jacked up the tyre price from £83.99 to £109.99 in less than 24 hours! I’m wondering if their algorithm spots return visits +does this automatically, on the basis that the punter must now be very interested… Cookies truly are evil
Cheers

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Thanks @Herts Hillhopper that’s great news. I’m glad that there’s no possible adjustment for rear wheel alignment on Pandas - makes matters much simpler +cheaper, only needing to get a front wheel alignment!

Agree the rears must be the originals, and at that age are pretty much end of life (though no visible cracking) and 50k+ miles is frankly astonishing on winter tyres by the previous 1 lady owner - she must have been a very careful driver!

On this age point, I notice KwikFit’s website has this outrageous statement: “Tyres are considered to be ‘new’ and are suitable for retail sale, for up to 5 years from the original date of production”!

Interested (and relieved) to hear that there are no TPMS tyre valves on Pandas, but I’m now intrigued how the system works…! I have chosen not to investigate this system (seems v complicated in the h/book) fearing I might awaken dreaded dash warning lights + an MOT failure. Still, I’ve always done regular visual checks together with pressure checks (with my trusty gauge) and see no reason to change

And thanks for the BlackCircles tip - I was gobsmacked when I reopened the Halfords website today and saw they had jacked up the tyre price from £83.99 to £109.99 in less than 24 hours! I’m wondering if their algorithm spots return visits +does this automatically, on the basis that the punter must now be very interested… Cookies truly are evil
Cheers

The Panda is very light on tyres. I replaced my originals at 44000 miles still with plenty of tread but not great grip ( the CrossContacts were poor in most conditions!)

Tyres in storage will be fine. Tyres in the open, exposed to UV will have degraded. And of course in use suffer wear and loading too. So no need to worry about 5 years in a warehouse. (Likelihood of that actually happening is small though).

Tpms is easy - a soft tyre has a different rolling diameter and so speed compared to the others. It has to be very soft (I sensed the puncture long before the system did). The difference is not normally triggered by the space saver. Also of course if all four tyres are equally soft it has no idea. Note that a tpms light is not a mot fail (a big, social media-driven myth). Only two lights on will fail you: airbag fault and engine light on. You can also fail for lights that don’t come in - eg main beam warning or brake system test at start up.

Tyre prices are very fickle, and affected by things like exchange rates etc. all season/winter tyres always cost more in winter for some reason, and rarely are there good stocks in the spring. All to do with supply and demand. I very much doubt there’s an algorithm at play, but probably is a daily price match check happening.

 

[The Panda Nut]

The Panda is very light on tyres. I replaced my originals at 44000 miles still with plenty of tread but not great grip ( the CrossContacts were poor in most conditions!)

Tyres in storage will be fine. Tyres in the open, exposed to UV will have degraded. And of course in use suffer wear and loading too. So no need to worry about 5 years in a warehouse. (Likelihood of that actually happening is small though).

Tpms is easy - a soft tyre has a different rolling diameter and so speed compared to the others. It has to be very soft (I sensed the puncture long before the system did). The difference is not normally triggered by the space saver. Also of course if all four tyres are equally soft it has no idea. Note that a tpms light is not a mot fail (a big, social media-driven myth). Only two lights on will fail you: airbag fault and engine light on. You can also fail for lights that don’t come in - eg main beam warning or brake system test at start up.

Tyre prices are very fickle, and affected by things like exchange rates etc. all season/winter tyres always cost more in winter for some reason, and rarely are there good stocks in the spring. All to do with supply and demand. I very much doubt there’s an algorithm at play, but probably is a daily price match check happening.

my understanding, backed by experience is it lights up at around 5psi. So do stop and check immediately if you see a tyre warning.

halfords were recently doing very good prices on Goodyear Vector all seasons. Around £75 each on four

 

[JayAre]

The Panda is very light on tyres. I replaced my originals at 44000 miles still with plenty of tread but not great grip ( the CrossContacts were poor in most conditions!)

Tyres in storage will be fine. Tyres in the open, exposed to UV will have degraded. And of course in use suffer wear and loading too. So no need to worry about 5 years in a warehouse. (Likelihood of that actually happening is small though).

Tpms is easy - a soft tyre has a different rolling diameter and so speed compared to the others. It has to be very soft (I sensed the puncture long before the system did). The difference is not normally triggered by the space saver. Also of course if all four tyres are equally soft it has no idea. Note that a tpms light is not a mot fail (a big, social media-driven myth). Only two lights on will fail you: airbag fault and engine light on. You can also fail for lights that don’t come in - eg main beam warning or brake system test at start up.

Tyre prices are very fickle, and affected by things like exchange rates etc. all season/winter tyres always cost more in winter for some reason, and rarely are there good stocks in the spring. All to do with supply and demand. I very much doubt there’s an algorithm at play, but probably is a daily price match check happening.

the whole issue of tyres is a nightmare of terms +codes +numbers!

The Michelin site talks in detail about appropriate tyre storage, but it also makes a very dogmatic statement:

“Tyre age limit : the 10-year threshold
If the tyres have not been replaced 10 years after their date of manufacture, Michelin recommends replacing them with new tyres as a precaution. This recommendation also applies to spare tyres.”

Obviously the spare (though protected from the ‘elements’) is still exposed to some temp extremes (inside the car) - but I guess they’re in the business of selling tyres…

I had another look at TPMS in the H/book and notice it’s actually called iTPMS - “i” is for “Indirect”, so there’s the clue to how it works as you explained…

But then it also goes on to say that basically it’s a waste of time: “iTPMS does not relieve the driver from the obligation to check the tyre pressure every month; it is not even to be considered a replacing system for maintenance or a safety system”! So I can’t see much point in it, especially with @The Panda Nut ‘s post re 5psi, which is virtually flat

my understanding, backed by experience is it lights up at around 5psi. So do stop and check immediately if you see a tyre warning.

halfords were recently doing very good prices on Goodyear Vector all seasons. Around £75 each on four

Btw - just checked Halfords site again + these are listing at £101.99 (G2). That’s a big difference - does Halfords vary prices by region?

 

[The Panda Nut]

the whole issue of tyres is a nightmare of terms +codes +numbers!

The Michelin site talks in detail about appropriate tyre storage, but it also makes a very dogmatic statement:

“Tyre age limit : the 10-year threshold
If the tyres have not been replaced 10 years after their date of manufacture, Michelin recommends replacing them with new tyres as a precaution. This recommendation also applies to spare tyres.”

Obviously the spare (though protected from the ‘elements’) is still exposed to some temp extremes (inside the car) - but I guess they’re in the business of selling tyres…

I had another look at TPMS in the H/book and notice it’s actually called iTPMS - “i” is for “Indirect”, so there’s the clue to how it works as you explained…

But then it also goes on to say that basically it’s a waste of time: “iTPMS does not relieve the driver from the obligation to check the tyre pressure every month; it is not even to be considered a replacing system for maintenance or a safety system”! So I can’t see much point in it, especially with @The Panda Nut ‘s post re 5psi, which is virtually flat


Btw - just checked Halfords site again + these are listing at £101.99 (G2). That’s a big difference - does Halfords vary prices by region?

There was a 20% off 4 offer. In the end I bought local and paid a littlr more.

 

[Vag]

No rear adjustment possible. Uneven wear can be down to incorrect pressure. The CrissContact Winters will be original fit, and may of course have been moved from the front? (Although ideally if only replacing two tyres, these should go at the back, regardless of driven wheels)

there are no TPMS valves on any Panda: it uses standard valves (uses part of the ABS system to detect a significant drop in pressure but will not report a drop of just a few PSI - so cannot substitute regular checks with a pressure gauge)

All weights will be stuck onto the inner surface, some by the spokes and some on the other edge (furthest from the kerb)

Halfords not the cheapest. Try BlackCircles.com (select 'Fully fitted' and they will direct you to a good, local, fitter)

Hello Herts - I have a Panda 4x4 Cross (312), one of the last petrol models in the UK I ordered, waited 9 months for and was finally delivered on 29/09/2022. On a recent 3 year service and first MOT at 9700 miles it failed for a "worn suspension arm or pin"! The dealer at first disputed the claim, but finally agreed and replaced the complete "N/S/F LOWER ARM" because the particular part(?) that was worn is apparently not replaceable as a separate item. When I collected the car at closing time it was immediately obvious the alignment was "out" because the car was pulling left with excessive right hand down required on cambered roads and going straight at speed on the level (motorway) the steering wheel is "off center" to the right (a pet peeve of mine!) and hands off the car drifts slowly left. I "know" about alignment and want to be able to check what they do when I take it back, but I can't find the alignment "specs" anywhere for my Panda. Can you help or point me in the right direction? Many thanks, Ed

 

[WitleyPanda]

Was having problems on one of my 4x4 , toe was -7mm

Found a specialist Fiat alignment centre, LTC TYRES and had them do it. Whilst not perfect, alignment of the front changed/improved the rears also.

Interesting that their setting/ specification figures are different from the basic that I found.
Tyre wear on inside no longer a problem and generally feels better.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Hello Herts - I have a Panda 4x4 Cross (312), one of the last petrol models in the UK I ordered, waited 9 months for and was finally delivered on 29/09/2022. On a recent 3 year service and first MOT at 9700 miles it failed for a "worn suspension arm or pin"! The dealer at first disputed the claim, but finally agreed and replaced the complete "N/S/F LOWER ARM" because the particular part(?) that was worn is apparently not replaceable as a separate item. When I collected the car at closing time it was immediately obvious the alignment was "out" because the car was pulling left with excessive right hand down required on cambered roads and going straight at speed on the level (motorway) the steering wheel is "off center" to the right (a pet peeve of mine!) and hands off the car drifts slowly left. I "know" about alignment and want to be able to check what they do when I take it back, but I can't find the alignment "specs" anywhere for my Panda. Can you help or point me in the right direction? Many thanks, Ed

It might seem surprising but many main dealer ‘service’ facilities don’t have alignment testing kit, or tyre fitting either. In fact they seem only to have a computer and limited range of abilities to do anything other than replace whole units. I’d suggest you either take it back and get them to sort, or, maybe better, call and get them to agree to refund a tracking check and adjust elsewhere. All tyre centres that do tracking will have the correct specs as they’re programmed into their test kit.

 

[Vag]

It might seem surprising but many main dealer ‘service’ facilities don’t have alignment testing kit, or tyre fitting either. In fact they seem only to have a computer and limited range of abilities to do anything other than replace whole units. I’d suggest you either take it back and get them to sort, or, maybe better, call and get them to agree to refund a tracking check and adjust elsewhere. All tyre centres that do tracking will have the correct specs as they’re programmed into their test kit.

Thanks for that. The dealer has agreed to take it back and get it sorted and you're right, they don't do it in house, but wouldn't tell me where or let me talk to the people who actually did the job! Would you know where I can get the correct alignment specs for my 312? Thanks

 

[WitleyPanda]

Thanks for that. The dealer has agreed to take it back and get it sorted and you're right, they don't do it in house, but wouldn't tell me where or let me talk to the people who actually did the job! Would you know where I can get the correct alignment specs for my 312? Thanks

The report sheet I attached shows the alignment specifications.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

The only ref I can find - same info as @WitleyPanda but from a different tyre place (showing they all use the same kit). The numbers to either end of the coloured bars show the acceptable values, with the centre being optimal. Only front toe can be adjusted - the other factors (camber etc) are fixed.

Getting the front 'toe' correct (+1mm), has a small effect on the rear value - even thought that's not actually adjustabe

 

[Steveetee55]

Just bought 2 new tyres for my 4x4 TA for its mot from my tyres they were reasonable price and next day delivery then this morning on the way to the mot station the front right caliper decided it wanted to start binding up grrr was a few choice words being used this morning to top it all my mot lad goes on holiday tomorrow so i've had to get him to fit a couple of new calipers which i could have done myself which annoys me even more 'just as knowing my luck the other would pack up as well! and as i need the car on the road asap the wallet will get hammered i dont know whether to laugh or cry something told me this morning as i awoke from my pit it was going to be an expensive day bloody hindsight

 

[jrkitching]

...i've had to get him to fit a couple of new calipers which i could have done myself which annoys me even more...

We should invent a new word for when you have to pay someone for a job you could have done yourself

AI has come up with the following:


Procrastipay /prō-ˈkrastə-pā/

• Verb: To pay someone else to do a task you have repeatedly put off, even though you are capable of doing it yourself.
• Noun: The act of paying someone to complete a job for you that is well within your own skillset, but for which you lack the time, motivation, or will.

 

[Steveetee55]

We should invent a new word for when you have to pay someone for a job you could have done yourself

AI has come up with the following:


Procrastipay /prō-ˈkrastə-pā/

• Verb: To pay someone else to do a task you have repeatedly put off, even though you are capable of doing it yourself.
• Noun: The act of paying someone to complete a job for you that is well within your own skillset, but for which you lack the time, motivation, or will.

Good old AI which quoted as i googled binding brake caliper as i waited for the garage to open 'and i quote a dodgy abs pump could cause it which also added to my annoyance not that i would have took much! Irony is i have just fitted 2 front calipers discs and pads all round on my wifes suzuki scross this weekend checked my brakes cleaned and greased the sliders shims etc on my car there was me thinking ahh fine everythings rosey in stevies garden unfortunately the computer said 'no'

 

[Steveetee55]

Good old AI which quoted as i googled binding brake caliper as i waited for the garage to open 'and i quote a dodgy abs pump could cause it which also added to my annoyance not that i would have took much! Irony is i have just fitted 2 front calipers discs and pads all round on my wifes suzuki scross this weekend checked my brakes cleaned and greased the sliders shims etc on my car there was me thinking ahh fine everythings rosey in stevies garden unfortunately the computer said 'no'

And my new word i wont print as it would be quite colourfull what annoys me more is the fact that theres cars that my workmates drive that how the hell they passed an mot i will never know

 

[jrkitching]

And my new word i wont print as it would be quite colourful

If I'd used the word I'd wanted to use, I'd have had to ban myself...

 

[Steveetee55]

Well not too bad in the end, fresh mot and 2 new calipers and pads £330 all in spose it saved me getting mucky in my garage