General panda 4 by 4 turbo it's here
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General panda 4 by 4 turbo it's here
doctorchris
Established member
Hi, the man from Sunderland here.
I've just had a look at the Cross at Springfield Fiat, Gateshead and booked a test drive for Monday. Originally I went to Benfield Fiat in Newcastle as I had an appointment in the city anyhow. Sadly they are giving up the Fiat franchise. I'm disappointed as I found their workshop to be reliable and their reception staff helpful and knowledgeable.
Anyhow, to enter the debate as to how the transmission operates on the Cross. First off, Fiat have produced no literature or information and the sales staff do not understand any of the technicalities. So, like others on this forum, I got down on the ubiquitous white tiling of the Fiat dealership's floor and had a look.
The viscous coupling that sits between the rear end of the propshaft and the rear diff on the petrol 4x4 is not there. I cannot see such a unit anywhere along the run of the propshaft and suspect that drive to the rear axle is engaged electronically rather than mechanically. The "diff lock" is engaged by a button on the central console. Looking at the vehicle, it is impossible to establish whether this is a virtual diff lock, achieved by the ABS system braking any wheels that spin or a real diff lock that physically locks up one or both differentials.
Littlepip's information from Italiaspeed suggests that it is a virtual diff lock.
The forward pointing part of the rear diff has a canister either side, as previously mentioned, which must be an elecro-mechanical sytem to engage rear wheel drive. This sytem must include some form of differential or transmission wind-up would occur on non-slippery surfaces between front and rear axles. However, this system could also have been designed to provide a front to rear diff lock, such as is provided on Land Rover vehicles. However, this would not restore traction when the vehicle is "cross-axled", a situation that the Cross is capable of coping with.
I do like the way that on the cross the sump-guard has been lightened by more perforations though this may make it more vulnerable to damage. The slightly better ground clearance is good. Lower profile, more road-biased tyres are not so good and the purely decorative plastic unit in the middle of the roof is pointless.
The overall styling and colour scheme is pleasing to the eye. Headlamp washers are a useful addition.
If the vehicle is appreciably faster, particularly in reaching a 70mph cruising speed and for overtaking, I might be tempted.
From the point of view of running costs it makes no sense to change from my 3 year old 4x4 Climbing where depreciation has slowed right down to a new Cross and I have no reliability worries about a 30,000 mile Panda which I feel has many miles of service left in it.
Oh and finally, I don't mind all those minor dints and scratches that urban driving inevitably leave on a car now that the Panda is 3 years old but I would be devastated to see them on a new Cross.
Sorry for the verbal diarrhoea.
I've just had a look at the Cross at Springfield Fiat, Gateshead and booked a test drive for Monday. Originally I went to Benfield Fiat in Newcastle as I had an appointment in the city anyhow. Sadly they are giving up the Fiat franchise. I'm disappointed as I found their workshop to be reliable and their reception staff helpful and knowledgeable.
Anyhow, to enter the debate as to how the transmission operates on the Cross. First off, Fiat have produced no literature or information and the sales staff do not understand any of the technicalities. So, like others on this forum, I got down on the ubiquitous white tiling of the Fiat dealership's floor and had a look.
The viscous coupling that sits between the rear end of the propshaft and the rear diff on the petrol 4x4 is not there. I cannot see such a unit anywhere along the run of the propshaft and suspect that drive to the rear axle is engaged electronically rather than mechanically. The "diff lock" is engaged by a button on the central console. Looking at the vehicle, it is impossible to establish whether this is a virtual diff lock, achieved by the ABS system braking any wheels that spin or a real diff lock that physically locks up one or both differentials.
Littlepip's information from Italiaspeed suggests that it is a virtual diff lock.
The forward pointing part of the rear diff has a canister either side, as previously mentioned, which must be an elecro-mechanical sytem to engage rear wheel drive. This sytem must include some form of differential or transmission wind-up would occur on non-slippery surfaces between front and rear axles. However, this system could also have been designed to provide a front to rear diff lock, such as is provided on Land Rover vehicles. However, this would not restore traction when the vehicle is "cross-axled", a situation that the Cross is capable of coping with.
I do like the way that on the cross the sump-guard has been lightened by more perforations though this may make it more vulnerable to damage. The slightly better ground clearance is good. Lower profile, more road-biased tyres are not so good and the purely decorative plastic unit in the middle of the roof is pointless.
The overall styling and colour scheme is pleasing to the eye. Headlamp washers are a useful addition.
If the vehicle is appreciably faster, particularly in reaching a 70mph cruising speed and for overtaking, I might be tempted.
From the point of view of running costs it makes no sense to change from my 3 year old 4x4 Climbing where depreciation has slowed right down to a new Cross and I have no reliability worries about a 30,000 mile Panda which I feel has many miles of service left in it.
Oh and finally, I don't mind all those minor dints and scratches that urban driving inevitably leave on a car now that the Panda is 3 years old but I would be devastated to see them on a new Cross.
Sorry for the verbal diarrhoea.
Sammyboy
Member
The Cross is in this weeks Autoexpress.
doctorchris
Established member
Wish a Panda Cross would pop through my door!
Sammyboy
Member
:stupid:
Sammyboy
Member
To be fair though mate that car clearly didn't pop through the front door doctorchris
Established member
Sammyboy, you're looking at where it came out, not where it went in!
Sammyboy
Member
Aye Aye - so, 'the man from Sunderland' has begun to buckle... although I suspect, like me, will end up keeping a three (and a half in my case) year old petrol 4x4 a little while longer.
Thanks for the info on the transmission. I have resisted going back to have another look and see what's what on the one in Watford, and have been surprised that the dealer there hasn't phoned me yet (they took my number when I looked at the car on the day it arrived with them)
Has anyone tried looking under a new petrol 4x4 at all? Is the differential housing different on them too (ie the same as the Cross). There are a couple of Cross owners on this forum -- can they take a look under their cars (maybe taking a photo or two as well) and tell us what's there?
Pete
Thanks for the info on the transmission. I have resisted going back to have another look and see what's what on the one in Watford, and have been surprised that the dealer there hasn't phoned me yet (they took my number when I looked at the car on the day it arrived with them)
Has anyone tried looking under a new petrol 4x4 at all? Is the differential housing different on them too (ie the same as the Cross). There are a couple of Cross owners on this forum -- can they take a look under their cars (maybe taking a photo or two as well) and tell us what's there?
Pete
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Couple of website postings about the Panda Cross, in case you missed them:
TopGear.com:
http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/3116/
AutoExpress:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/226338/fiat_panda_cross.html
'Car' magazine:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/Fiat-Panda-Cross-comes-to-the-UK/
One more - note comments from Fiat UK Marketing Manager, and standard equip list, if this is right:
http://www.carpages.co.uk/fiat/fiat-panda-cross-09-08-08.asp
(later - CarPages have reproduced Fiat's Press Release verbatim - it's on the Fiat website too: http://www.fiat.co.uk/Content/Article.aspx?id=14977)
TopGear.com:
http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/3116/
AutoExpress:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/226338/fiat_panda_cross.html
'Car' magazine:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/Fiat-Panda-Cross-comes-to-the-UK/
One more - note comments from Fiat UK Marketing Manager, and standard equip list, if this is right:
http://www.carpages.co.uk/fiat/fiat-panda-cross-09-08-08.asp
(later - CarPages have reproduced Fiat's Press Release verbatim - it's on the Fiat website too: http://www.fiat.co.uk/Content/Article.aspx?id=14977)
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Panda Cross is now on Fiat UK's website:
http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/#showroom/panda_4x4/explore
and it says there 'an extra 10cm of ride height' -- is that right? (and compared to what?) [click the 'style' tab at the bottom, and then teh red arrow by the wipers]
But, under 'interior' and 'ergonomics', it says 5cm more...
Maybe the Cross is higher... I will have to go back an look, won't I?!
One more edit (last one!). Go through the 'Configure a Fiat' route on their website, and you find the list of what;s in the price - pasted below: (intrigued by 'partial cellophane wrap'!!)
http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/#showroom/panda_4x4/explore
and it says there 'an extra 10cm of ride height' -- is that right? (and compared to what?) [click the 'style' tab at the bottom, and then teh red arrow by the wipers]
But, under 'interior' and 'ergonomics', it says 5cm more...
Maybe the Cross is higher... I will have to go back an look, won't I?!
One more edit (last one!). Go through the 'Configure a Fiat' route on their website, and you find the list of what;s in the price - pasted below: (intrigued by 'partial cellophane wrap'!!)
Attachments
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On a roll here (can you tell I've been away?)
Full set of Fiat's press photos of the Cross here:
http://www.netcarshow.com/fiat/2008-panda_cross/
What's this light? The Locking Diff 'on' is shown by the switch itself lighting up (so far as I recall) -- so what's the 'drivetrain' warning light (by 120mph mark) mean? (see http://www.netcarshow.com/fiat/2008-panda_cross/800x600/wallpaper_10.htm)
Note also the full trip computer is included. All the Cross's seen in teh UK so far seem to be green, but note from the 'configurator' in previous post this is a £375 extra apparently.
Full set of Fiat's press photos of the Cross here:
http://www.netcarshow.com/fiat/2008-panda_cross/
What's this light? The Locking Diff 'on' is shown by the switch itself lighting up (so far as I recall) -- so what's the 'drivetrain' warning light (by 120mph mark) mean? (see http://www.netcarshow.com/fiat/2008-panda_cross/800x600/wallpaper_10.htm)
Note also the full trip computer is included. All the Cross's seen in teh UK so far seem to be green, but note from the 'configurator' in previous post this is a £375 extra apparently.
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doctorchris
Established member
Definitely not an extra 10cm ride height compared with the 4x4 Climbing. I calculated the extra ride height previously from info on Italiaspeed and I think I made it an extra 1cm, ie 10mm.
I can't see Fiat changing the transmission on the petrol model so I suspect it remains the purely mechanical system, all the better for that I feel as it is simple, reliable and bullet-proof. Electronics and 4x4 with its encumbent water, snow, grit, salt and ice do not make good bedfellows.
I think the drivetrain warning light in the speedo display is just another warning that the difflock is engaged. There is also another warning light showing a little car climbing a hill, coloured yellow and with a surround suggesting that it relates to brakes. Wonder what that means.
Looking at all the links the journos and even Fiat UK have no idea how this transmission works. Hope the workshops do if it ever goes wrong!
I can't see Fiat changing the transmission on the petrol model so I suspect it remains the purely mechanical system, all the better for that I feel as it is simple, reliable and bullet-proof. Electronics and 4x4 with its encumbent water, snow, grit, salt and ice do not make good bedfellows.
I think the drivetrain warning light in the speedo display is just another warning that the difflock is engaged. There is also another warning light showing a little car climbing a hill, coloured yellow and with a surround suggesting that it relates to brakes. Wonder what that means.
Looking at all the links the journos and even Fiat UK have no idea how this transmission works. Hope the workshops do if it ever goes wrong!
doctorchris
Established member
I think Orange or Black would be the colours for me. Orange is a bit wild but at no extra cost. Having a Dry Turquoise 4x4 with yellow seats already I have a reputation to maintain of driving a very bright and conspicuous motor with a wild interior. In addition, I find the bright colours make what is really quite a small car stand out in traffic which enhances safety.
Partial cellophane rap is an intriguing feature, is it a form of body protection or a style of music?
Partial cellophane rap is an intriguing feature, is it a form of body protection or a style of music?
"There is also another warning light showing a little car climbing a hill, coloured yellow and with a surround suggesting that it relates to[FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,"][FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,"] brakes[/FONT][/FONT]. Wonder what that means."...
My 4x4 came with the additional instructions for the ESP system which answers that one (its not fitted though). That yellow light shows the 'Hill Holder' has failed. With Hill Holder, at rest on a hill (going up hill, at traffic lights for example) and both brake and clutch pedals down, the hill holder holds the car for you (the ABS pump applies the brakes) while you engage gear. Press accelerator and lift clutch and the brakes are released as you move off. Personally, i find I can do that quite well by myself...
My 4x4 came with the additional instructions for the ESP system which answers that one (its not fitted though). That yellow light shows the 'Hill Holder' has failed. With Hill Holder, at rest on a hill (going up hill, at traffic lights for example) and both brake and clutch pedals down, the hill holder holds the car for you (the ABS pump applies the brakes) while you engage gear. Press accelerator and lift clutch and the brakes are released as you move off. Personally, i find I can do that quite well by myself...
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doctorchris
Established member
The misspellings are great, aren't they. "Viscose" coupling, viscose is a form of man-made fibre not terribly well-suited to inclusion in the drivetrain of a 4x4, a viscous coupling would work much better. "Partial cellophane rap", a wrap would make better sense.
'Wrap' it is -- the cars are delivered to the dealer with a white peel off sheet over the bonnet and roof to prevent dirt (I guess) spoiling them in transit. You can see it on the bonnet in the photo I added much further back in this thread (https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-new/155712-panda-4-4-turbo-its-here-4.html?p=1655502)
Seems odd to list it on the specs though?
Seems odd to list it on the specs though?
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Blimey. I look forward to seeing lots of people with drivetrain problems!
As for the wrap it will be some sort of bonnet or side skirt protection film like the one pictured but it will be clear. Means you won't get stone chips in the paint where the film is applied
