Technical Panda 100hp low end torque poor after belt replacement

[summerrun]

Having just bought the car i treated it to full service and new belt/waterpump/tensioner at my local garage.

Driving it now feels flat at low revs and when starting it seems like it does not "catch" for several seconds of cranking. Before the service it started first turn and was like the proverbial **** off a shovel across the rev range. It now only gets 'fun' again over 4k RPM and feels like off the line it is pedestrian in the lower rev ranges. Idling is also a bit rougher I reckon...

The post4144309 seems to reference the same issue but I never saw a resolution. Has anyone else had this?
Could it be one tooth out on the belt and still run?
Might they have not used the correct cam locking tool in setting the unkeyed cam sprocket and just be a fraction off in the timing?

What do you reckon?

Is there a skilled tech in Edinburgh I should have taken it to for this job?

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[jrkitching]

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts

I wish I had a pound for every post I've seen from folks who've had problems after routine belt replacement. Whilst I'd never advise neglecting this on an interference engine such as this one, nevertheless it's interesting that these posts outnumber those from folks who've actually had one fail by at least 100 to 1.

Given the number of problems folks report after belt replacement, this isn't a job where you want to be chasing after the cheapest quote - finding a garage that actually knows what they're doing and has the correct tools is more important. If in any doubt, this is perhaps one of the rare occasions when I'd recommend paying the price and using a franchised dealer.

Without the locking tools, it's easy to bend a valve stem whilst setting it up; after that, even if you get the timing spot on, it'll never run quite right.

Could it be one tooth out on the belt and still run? Might they have not used the correct cam locking tool in setting the unkeyed cam sprocket and just be a fraction off in the timing?

Yes, and yes - I'd say the most likely cause is the new cambelt hasn't been set up correctly.

at my local garage

This is an instant 'red flag'. Belt replacement on this engine isn't straightforward, and use of the correct cam locking tools is pretty much mandatory. Not many local garages will have these tools, and many will try to improvise without them. Are you certain the garage used the correct timing tools for this engine when setting up the replacement belt?

If not, I'd suggest taking it somewhere that knows what they're doing; either a franchised dealer, or a Fiat specialist. In the meantime, if you need to continue to drive it, I'd strongly recommend keeping below 2500 rpm.

The worst case scenario is that the mistiming results in metal to metal contact inside the engine; after that, no amount of expertise or tooling is going to be able to rectify this cheaply.

 

[summerrun]

That is super helpful. Many thanks. The garage is fine and seem to do ok with a wide range of cars but i would bet that they do not have enough of any specific model to get unique specialised tools.
I just wish I'd known to seek out a specialist for what on most cars seems like a simple job.

I've done about 50 miles since the new belt and some of that was "enthusiastic" so I guess that's likely to mean bent valves.

Any ideas what I'm looking at for a rebuild ?

 

[jrkitching]

I've done about 50 miles since the new belt and some of that was "enthusiastic" so I guess that's likely to mean bent valves.

Not necessarily; if it's just a little out, you may still be fine. Get it properly checked, and take it from there.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[koalar]

double check everything is plugged in correctly . Any engine light ?

Its easy to leave a sensor unplugged or introduce an inlet leak

have a visual inspection of the cam sensor and MAF sensor but both should flag an engine error code if left unplugged

I see it was done at a garage. They need to correct this

 

[summerrun]

no engine light buy i can check the OBD anyway ... be back in a mo

 

[summerrun]

no obd codes
if of any relevance / interest the live data showed idle 865 to 875 rpm with
-3 to 2 spark advance at idle then about 25 at 2000rpm in neutral

I check the sensor cables tomorrow in the light.

Many thanks for your help.

 

[jrkitching]

I see it was done at a garage. They need to correct this

:yeahthat:

I'd certainly consider the merits of taking it back and explaining why you're unhappy with it. If you are going to have any comeback, it's sensible in the first instance to see what they have to say.

If they can't, or won't, sort things out, and it ends up with your taking it to a franchised dealer or Fiat specialist and they say it's been mistimed, I'd be seeking a full reimbursement of the cost from the first garage - but you do need to give them the opportunity to put things right first.

 

[koalar]

if your scan tool can pick up the data from the cam sensor you will not need to physically check although it right on the top


Most things unplugged will throw an error code. I seem to remember the cam doesn't. If my memory is correct someone left it off and only got an error when they plugged it back in again.


idle is normally 850 so close enough


its best to at least flag the problem as soon as possible. So the connection to their work and the problem is fresh.

 

[timmycm850]

Hi All

I can not agree more with post no8 jrkitching.

The garage needs to be given the opportunity to rectify the issue, if you let anybody fiddle with it before them they can possibly walk away scot free.

Tim

 

[koalar]

have to think about this

should be able to test the timing

the cam and Crank have a different number of teeth and they kind of mesh together in a precise way at lower revs

BMW diagnostic software tells you if there in sync while cranking

you could do the same manually on an oscilloscope watching two traces from each sensor

I would have thought if both were plugged in and the belt was out an Fiat P0016 Crankshaft/Camshaft Correlation Error would have popped up

 

[DaveMcT]

The Fiat 1.4 16V is not an uncommon engine.

There are loads of very good smaller garages. They exist by maintaining a good name for quality service. Main dealers do far less old car diagnosis because folks don't take old cars to them. Take it back and explain the issue to them.

 

[Jockcl500]

The Fiat 1.4 16V is not an uncommon engine.

There are loads of very good smaller garages. They exist by maintaining a good name for quality service. Main dealers do far less old car diagnosis because folks don't take old cars to them. Take it back and explain the issue to them.

I agree, and take it back as soon as possible, fixing it quickly is the best way to avoid damage, the belt is most likely off by a tooth, and running it for any length of time, could burn valve seats as they are open at the wrong time.

 

[DaveMcT]

If the timing was far enough out to impact valves, the engine would not run or at least be extremely difficult to start and be down on power. A symptom is a strange sounding starter - "whir-whir-whir" rather than "whrrrrrrr - broom". That up down sound on the starter is the zero compression cylinder.

My bet is that the belt is off timing by one tooth. It needs to be checked by the garage.

 

[summerrun]

:yeahthat:

I'd certainly consider the merits of taking it back and explaining why you're unhappy with it. If you are going to have any comeback, it's sensible in the first instance to see what they have to say.

If they can't, or won't, sort things out, and it ends up with your taking it to a franchised dealer or Fiat specialist and they say it's been mistimed, I'd be seeking a full reimbursement of the cost from the first garage - but you do need to give them the opportunity to put things right first.

I took it back and they said that it checked out fine on their computer and they do not think it is mistimed. I pointed out how hard to start it has become, hot or cold, and they just shrugged. I guess i need a specialist

 

[summerrun]

If the timing was far enough out to impact valves, the engine would not run or at least be extremely difficult to start and be down on power. A symptom is a strange sounding starter - "whir-whir-whir" rather than "whrrrrrrr - broom". That up down sound on the starter is the zero compression cylinder.

My bet is that the belt is off timing by one tooth. It needs to be checked by the garage.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the starting sound is periodic rather than smooth - implying a cylinder is not compressing - i guess because a valve is open.

 

[jackwhoo]

I took it back and they said that it checked out fine on their computer and they do not think it is mistimed. I pointed out how hard to start it has become, hot or cold, and they just shrugged. I guess i need a specialist

I don't think the valve timing can be checked with a computer because the camshaft sensor picks up signal from the cam shaft sprocket which is freewheeling on the camshaft until bolt tight-which is why special locking tool needed.

What should be done is set crankshaft in correct position, use mirror to look in hole special tool fits into - if groove in cam shaft for tool to fit into is in view correctly then valve timing correct. Bear in mind if groove not in view first try turn crank one full turn to correct position and look again.

 

[Jockcl500]

I took it back and they said that it checked out fine on their computer and they do not think it is mistimed. I pointed out how hard to start it has become, hot or cold, and they just shrugged. I guess i need a specialist

I hate to say it but you need a proper garage, any decent mechanic will turn the crankshaft pulley until the marks line up with the crankshaft, and then visually check the camshaft marks are lining up too, which is how valve timing is checked, they either line up and the timing is correct or they don't line up which means it needs the belt removed and put on the correct tooth.
Anyone who plugs a car into a computer to check valve timing is an idiot.

 

[summerrun]

I hate to say it but you need a proper garage, any decent mechanic will turn the crankshaft pulley until the marks line up with the crankshaft, and then visually check the camshaft marks are lining up too, which is how valve timing is checked, they either line up and the timing is correct or they don't line up which means it needs the belt removed and put on the correct tooth.
Anyone who plugs a car into a computer to check valve timing is an idiot.

Is there an easy way to get the covers off the belt without taking off the engine mount etc?

 

[jackwhoo]

Camshaft sprockets that are not keyed to the camshaft can bolt on the camshaft in any position. This type of sprocket should not have any timing marks on them because that causes confusion and incorrect timing.

Hence the need to lock the camshaft and crankshaft in the correct positions before tightening the camshaft sprocket retaining bolt.

Other manufactures make engines with non keyed cam sprockets and non keyed crank sprockets.