Technical Panda 100HP fuel pump

[Medved]

Hello!
I am a proud owner of 100hp with **** ton of problems, one of which is fuel pressure. I am doing some research but there is hardly any comments or experiences regarding 100hp fuel pumps. This is second time replacing it... Are there any good aftermarket options? I would love if there are some "high performace" or simply better pumps i could fit.
Also, i couldn't find panda 169 thread section, this one says 03-12 as mk3(??), so i apologize if i'm at the wrong place!
Anyways, any help i appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[DaveMcT]

Mine refused to start after a long lay-off. Symptoms were the fuel pump but the fuel rail had pressure (tested with jury wire direct to the pump). Another clue was no power to the OBD port hence no error messages. The reality was a (probably) a faulty relay. One-by-one, I pulled every fuse and every relay and individually tested them. All checked out fine, but when done the car started with no problems and has been fine ever since.

THOUROUGHLY check your electrics before you chuck in another fuel pump.

 

[Medved]

Mine refused to start after a long lay-off. Symptoms were the fuel pump but the fuel rail had pressure (tested with jury wire direct to the pump). Another clue was no power to the OBD port hence no error messages. The reality was a (probably) a faulty relay. One-by-one, I pulled every fuse and every relay and individually tested them. All checked out fine, but when done the car started with no problems and has been fine ever since.

THOUROUGHLY check your electrics before you chuck in another fuel pump

This goes a lot deeper, i don't think it's an electric issue.
It all started with check engine with misfire code p0300. It was lighting up on random cylinders. Changed all coil packs, spark plugs 2 sets, i myself changed coil connectors since old ones were broken. It still gives me check engine light with p0300 in combination with p030x. I noticed that it has trouble starting, though it does every time, when it's cold weather ang gives check engine only when below half/quarter tank. besides that, seems like a whole different car to drive when full on gas. I've also been warned about fuel pump by previous mechanic some time back. And OBD port works just fine.
You might be right, i will go ahead and check my fuses just in case, but symptoms seem to point to fuel pressure issue.
Please, if you have any other ideas regarding my issue let me know. Thanks for you reply!

 

[koalar]

Hello!
I am a proud owner of 100hp with **** ton of problems, one of which is fuel pressure. I am doing some research but there is hardly any comments or experiences regarding 100hp fuel pumps. This is second time replacing it... Are there any good aftermarket options? I would love if there are some "high performace" or simply better pumps i could fit.
Also, i couldn't find panda 169 thread section, this one says 03-12 as mk3(??), so i apologize if i'm at the wrong place!
Anyways, any help i appreciated.
Thanks!

whats the pressure with an external gauge . There's a valve on the fuel rail which is handy for attaching a gauge. The pumps do fail. I have never one give the wrong pressure. First they go noisy, they then carry on for years till one day the car will not start until you give the pump a tap


the pump in my opinion isnt a weak link in the Panda and doesn't need an upgrade


if they keep failing something else will be causing it.

 

[koalar]

This goes a lot deeper, i don't think it's an electric issue.
It all started with check engine with misfire code p0300. It was lighting up on random cylinders. Changed all coil packs, spark plugs 2 sets, i myself changed coil connectors since old ones were broken. It still gives me check engine light with p0300 in combination with p030x. I noticed that it has trouble starting, though it does every time, when it's cold weather ang gives check engine only when below half/quarter tank. besides that, seems like a whole different car to drive when full on gas. I've also been warned about fuel pump by previous mechanic some time back. And OBD port works just fine.
You might be right, i will go ahead and check my fuses just in case, but symptoms seem to point to fuel pressure issue.
Please, if you have any other ideas regarding my issue let me know. Thanks for you reply!

a random misfire to faulty fuel pressure is a big jump.

by all means check the pressure

a better start would be to check the MAP sensor isn't covered in oil

and/or post a picture of your spark plugs in cylinder order. Colour/wetness will give some feedback as to whats happening inside the cylinders

if you stand at the back of the car and listen to the exhaust is it nice and even or does it stutter or pop

 

[Medved]

whats the pressure with an external gauge . There's a valve on the fuel rail which is handy for attaching a gauge. The pumps do fail. I have never one give the wrong pressure. First they go noisy, they then carry on for years till one day the car will not start until you give the pump a tap


the pump in my opinion isnt a weak link in the Panda and doesn't need an upgrade


if they keep failing something else will be causing it.

I will measure it and get back to you, don't know to be exact. But yes, it seems to be going on for quite some time with getting a bit worse with time.
What do you think would be the cause for them to fail?

a random misfire to faulty fuel pressure is a big jump.

by all means check the pressure

a better start would be to check the MAP sensor isn't covered in oil

and/or post a picture of your spark plugs in cylinder order. Colour/wetness will give some feedback as to whats happening inside the cylinders

if you stand at the back of the car and listen to the exhaust is it nice and even or does it stutter or pop

It never gave me any faults or warnings about map sensor, but i can check that too.
It has new sparkplugs in, but the other ones were in terrible condition. It does burn some oil, though i had oil pressure measured and it turned out to be fine. i might have a picture of those old ones. i will compare them to new ones if you would give me you opinion about that.

The car sounds completely fine, it doesn't missfire all the time, only at start on cold days, hence why i've been getting check engine warnings. Turns off as soon as i pump some gas...

 

[koalar]

The car sounds completely fine, it doesn't missfire all the time, only at start on cold days, hence why i've been getting check engine warnings. Turns off as soon as i pump some gas...

This already eliminates most things in my opinion

its unlikely to be spark or lack of fuel

"It does burn some oil"

if I was a betting man I would go for. oil fouled plugs, over rich mixture or lack of compression

A picture of the new plugs is fine, Colour, wetness, soot and so on only takes a few miles to build up.

with similar I normally start by inspecting the MAP sensor, its only held on by one bolt, It fairly common to have a drop. of oil to be on the end, which messes up the ambient temperature reading and fuelling. Often clears up temporarily if you take it for a run at higher revs

 

[Medved]

It's been burning oil ever since we bought it back in 2013, never changed, and these engines are notorious for burning.
I don't think it's the sparkplugs, replacing old ones didn't fix the issue but i might be wrong.
As i said, i had compression measured and it was just fine.

What would cause MAP sensor to get oiled up? Does it than cause rich mixture?

I will post pictures of spark plugs as soon as i get around to pulling them.

 

[irc]

My "old dog" 100hp uses some oil, mostly when it's being driven hard, with high revs. 140k miles, doesn't foul the plugs.
It did have rough idling last year - seems to have been a poor connection in the engine bay, as most were unplugged and cleaned when I changed the clutch and the problem just disappeared.
It has developed a new problem lately, which may be another poor connection, or possibly a throttle problem, where it sometimes lurches when cold when pulling away or reversing. Idle is steady as a rock, and it pulls very smoothly at all other times. Less bad when not in Sport mode, but still there.
I do need to fix that before it trashes the exhaust flexi pipe...

It's not had a lot of love from previous owners, and I only really bought it for spares, but I've kept it around coz it's a lot of fun on the cheap (although nowhere near as cheap as a standard 1.2 Panda!)

 

[koalar]

MAP sensor monitors the air supply and temperature.

When it gets covered in oil the values are normally wildly out

Misfire, hesitating

Ambient temperature jumps around.

It very common. I am on my fourth FIRE engine car. Caused by cylinder head and or blocked breather pipe

It’s one screw to check.

Burning oil = blue smoke
Using oil = oil level going down

It’s not common for these to burn oil

 

[koalar]

If it was the fuel pressure it would be worse under higher demands

Accelerator down, higher revs

Where as to clear the misfire you blipping the throttle

 

[irc]

MAP sensor monitors the air supply and temperature.

When it gets covered in oil the values are normally wildly out

Misfire, hesitating

Ambient temperature jumps around.

It very common. I am on my fourth FIRE engine car. Caused by cylinder head and or blocked breather pipe

It’s one screw to check.

Burning oil = blue smoke
Using oil = oil level going down

It’s not common for these to burn

MAP sensor monitors the air supply and temperature.

When it gets covered in oil the values are normally wildly out

Misfire, hesitating

Ambient temperature jumps around.

It very common. I am on my fourth FIRE engine car. Caused by cylinder head and or blocked breather pipe

It’s one screw to check.

Burning oil = blue smoke
Using oil = oil level going down

It’s not common for these to burn oil

MAP sensor was clean, and pipes weren't blocked, or even particularly dirty.
Dodgy running on mine was almost certainly electrical as changing the clutch would have made no difference at all to the rough running. Not spent any time or money on it since, so fairly conclusive.
It IS the only FIRE engine I've had which does use any noticeable amount of oil, but there is no visible smoke at any time, and emissions at MOT time have been spot on for both years I've owned it.
As I said, it was pretty unloved, and its not really worth much (paint is horrible, high-ish miles, general air of neglect) but it was cheap, and it has been reliable so far. And it's fun (apart from the ridiculously hard front suspension caused by a previous owner "upgrading" the springs)
Still willing to bet OP has a connector or earth problem.

 

[koalar]

.
As i said, i had compression measured and it was just fine.

Oil pressure checked fine

Did you mean compression. What were the figures

 

[koalar]

Dodgy running on mine was almost certainly electrical as changing the clutch would have made no difference at all to the rough running. Not spent any time or money on it since, so fairly conclusive.

fair bit will have been disturbed

both o2 sensors will have been re-seated
airbox
ECU
Battery and connectors

at least if it returns you will have a starting place and probably will jot require an parts

 

[Medved]

MAP sensor monitors the air supply and temperature.

When it gets covered in oil the values are normally wildly out

Misfire, hesitating

Ambient temperature jumps around.

It very common. I am on my fourth FIRE engine car. Caused by cylinder head and or blocked breather pipe

It’s one screw to check.

Burning oil = blue smoke
Using oil = oil level going down

It’s not common for these to burn oil

It has no blue smoke, only using oil. I'm sorry for bad terminology. I will be checking MAP sensor asap.

If it was the fuel pressure it would be worse under higher demands

Accelerator down, higher revs

Where as to clear the misfire you blipping the throttle

I don't feel that missfire at all, it seems like it reports it but nothing changes. Car runs fine, no stuttering or lose of power, shaking...

Oil pressure checked fine

Did you mean compression. What were the figures

Cylinder compression was measured, my mistake.
I wrote the numbers down, will have to try and find them, don't know off the top of my head.

Will be posting pictures of MAP and plugs, just so you can give me more clues.
Where exactly can i find an O2 sensor?

 

[Medved]

As I said, it was pretty unloved, and its not really worth much (paint is horrible, high-ish miles, general air of neglect) but it was cheap, and it has been reliable so far. And it's fun (apart from the ridiculously hard front suspension caused by a previous owner "upgrading" the springs)
Still willing to bet OP has a connector or earth problem.

Mine wasn't looked after either. It has 155k km and it doesn't seem as reliable. I guess i just have to go trough stuff that previous family members didn't.
Paint on these is terrible. Clear coat coming off, red became orange... I would love to get all of that fixed up

 

[irc]

Paint on these is terrible. Clear coat coming off, red became orange... I would love to get all of that fixed up

Some paint seems to last just fine. Unfortunately mine hasn't. Where it isn't orange it's nearly white. Every panel has lacquer peel, and the front has loads of stone chips.
There's another red one around here that looks immaculate - makes mine look like a total shed. Oh well...

 

[koalar]

Both o2 sensor are on the inlet manifold / cat combo. They are the same part so can be swapped. Only the top one is important for the running of the car. The lower one is more checking how the cat is. Can be a pain to undo. Best engine hot. I’d leave alone unless a scanner shows there faulty. If you have an elm scanner look at the long term trims. Look at the o2 voltages. Never had a o2 fail on a Panda. Did have one fail on a Punto. Failed emission but ran okay.

 

[Medved]

Both o2 sensor are on the inlet manifold / cat combo. They are the same part so can be swapped. Only the top one is important for the running of the car. The lower one is more checking how the cat is. Can be a pain to undo. Best engine hot. I’d leave alone unless a scanner shows there faulty. If you have an elm scanner look at the long term trims. Look at the o2 voltages. Never had a o2 fail on a Panda. Did have one fail on a Punto. Failed emission but ran okay.

So i shouldn't check those, understood. Good to know where they are anyways

 

[koalar]

So i shouldn't check those, understood. Good to know where they are anyways

i check via software

a scope will show a nice sinewave

due to the software sampling rate live data from a scan tool will look more like this after the engine been on a couple of minutes