Technical OBD diagnostics

[Graham GB]

Do what I did Graham, buy a Morris Minor with the plan of making it your number one vehicle once you get it sorted out :devil:

Modern cars are unnecessarily complicated and this sort of bulldust is part of the price we pay.

Well,we already have a '61 Beetle,that we've had since '77,would that do
Not sure about using the Beetle amongst todays traffic & racing drivers in the UK:chin:

 

[philboo]

I'm not sure if i should post our recent experience with our Panda T/A,in this thread or start a new thread,it is related to the Diagnostics/Triangle of Doom,so i'll stick it here & see how it goes.

Our Panda recently had a factory recall for an indicator light problem,carried out at the Fiat dealer we bought the Car from(ex-dem),the recall was for some sort of update to the computer.

The indicator fault was corrected but a headlamp problem developed with the update,so the car had to be booked back in pending info from Fiat(which took 6 weeks)

To get to the main point,after the recall/download,the Triangle indicator light started to come on randomly so we reported this & where told it would be rectified when the car was in for the new download.

This has just been carried out but the Triangle warning was still coming on(along with a Stop/Start disconnected warning)

So the car went back to the dealer yesterday & we where informed that the triangle didn't come on while hooked up to the diagnostic machine,so they couldn't obtain a "CODE" for the fault,but the mechanic "thought" it may be a possible brake sensor issue,which predictably means we will have to pay for a new diagnostic check,because it's not connected to the initial indicator problem.

I'd appreciate any help words of wisdom about how to proceed with this,firstly should the Diagnostic machine have shown up a fault,even though the Triangle warning was not displaying.

Cheers,Graham.

Well it's interesting they say possibly a brake sensor issue as that is the only reference to an error code my car had when I used the MES software. I've cleared this and will see if it happens again.

I did exercise the brake pedal and watch the system detect the two sensors related to brake position whilst doing all this and couldn't see any issue.

I had read some posts about the indicator recall but my dealer knew nothing about it when mine went in for a service a month ago.

 

[Graham GB]

What i'm concerned about is,they are saying that they need to hook up the car to the diagnostic reader to detect if it is a faulty brake sensor(cost 100.00).
Should they not have seen a fault code when they hooked up to investigate the Triangle warning light?
Cheers,Graham.

 

[jrkitching]

What i'm concerned about is,they are saying that they need to hook up the car to the diagnostic reader to detect if it is a faulty brake sensor(cost 100.00).
Should they not have seen a fault code when they hooked up to investigate the Triangle warning light?
Cheers,Graham.

Graham, how old is your car, and is it still in warranty?

 

[Graham GB]

It's a 2012 Panda Lounge,out of warranty.

 

[philboo]

It's a 2012 Panda Lounge,out of warranty.

You're in a similar situation to me. Mine is just out of warranty and they wanted over £100 just to read an error code.

Annoyingly you seem to constantly have an issue but my error hasn't reoccurred after a long drive which I hope means it was just a low battery voltage.

If you plan to keep the panda for the £40 for the software and £15 for the reader and reads I think it's worth getting them and you can see what errors your car is giving out without the dealer.

I know on mine, the note of the software related to a brake switch issue says 'this did not illuminate the display warning light' or words to that effect so I don't know what the cause of my error was if it wasn't just a low battery.

 

[Graham GB]

Thanks,philboo.
So from reading your reply,can i assume that the Dealer would have been able to read any existing/previous fault codes,regardless of the fact that the Triangle was not displayed when he hooked up our Car?.
Also with your reader box,if you took the information to your Dealer,would they act on the info,or would they still insist on using there own reader(100.00 charge),before carrying out any repair/work.
Cheers,Graham.

 

[philboo]

Thanks,philboo.

So from reading your reply,can i assume that the Dealer would have been able to read any existing/previous fault codes,regardless of the fact that the Triangle was not displayed when he hooked up our Car?.

Also with your reader box,if you took the information to your Dealer,would they act on the info,or would they still insist on using there own reader(100.00 charge),before carrying out any repair/work.

Cheers,Graham.

From what I've seen the fault is hopefully logged regardless of the warning light. That said, I had a warning light and can't find any logged error which says the warning light would have been illuminated due to it. Hence why I now hope this was totally due to a low battery. I would hope that as the voltage can drop and rise through normal use and anyone can change a battery (not just a dealer) then that type of error may not even get logged. I'll know if it happens again as I'll plug in and look for an error.

I doubt the dealer would take my word for it but I would strongly argue that I would tell them what the error logged was and as such I don't see why I'd be paying another £100 to confirm something. This is my 4th fiat and to be honest it's been the most temperamental with the brake noise, dash rattle, poor start/stop, other random errors messages in the early days before a software upgrade and also I suspect the climate control has something wrong with it but the dealer could hear the load discharge sound I described when it was in for a service (sorry I digress). Each dealer seems to give very different service. I'm still waiting for word back on my brakes which apparently have been referred to Italy even though they been like this from nearly new and each year on the service I complain about them and have previously paid to have them striped and cleaned which lasted all of a week.

It all depends on how much information you want to be armed with. For me, £55 to have the facility to know before I take it in (and I can use time and time again) is worth it even though I also feel I shouldn't have to go through this to avoid dealer fees to plug it into a computer at their PC.

I can only imaging how bad this is going to get in the future with autonomous cars with highly precise radar, 3D cameras, etc.

 

[jrkitching]

I'm still waiting for word back on my brakes which apparently have been referred to Italy even though they been like this from nearly new and each year on the service I complain about them and have previously paid to have them striped and cleaned which lasted all of a week.

Have you seen this thread?

Properly lubricated (this isn't done on new cars in the factory, and likely isn't done by dealers doing a strip & clean, or pad replacement), the 500/Panda brakes will give many thousands of miles of trouble free service.

If assembled dry and used in the UK, one decent winter will quite likely ruin them.

The forum is littered with posts from folks who've needed complete disc & pad replacement after sometimes as little as 12 months/10,000 miles. I did this shortly after both my cars were delivered new; on the Panda, the front pads & discs worked faultlessly for 49000 miles before needing replacement due to normal wear. The 500 is now over 6 years old and about 34,000 miles; it's still running the original pads & discs.

The setup on those cars with rear discs seems to be the most problematic of the lot in this regard.

Pragmatically, on a car out of warranty, getting the whole lot cleaned & lubricated by someone who knows what they're doing is likely to be the easiest way of resolving your problem. Better still, do it yourself - it might not cost you anything at all if the parts are still good enough to reuse.

I can only imaging how bad this is going to get in the future with autonomous cars with highly precise radar, 3D cameras, etc.

I welcome technical innovation - I don't want to go back to the 1950's - providing it's implemented using parts of sufficient quality to last the expected life of the product.

IMO the real problem is that the manufacturer's relentless drive for cheapness means these solutions are implemented using parts that are prone to premature failure and expensive to replace.

 

[philboo]

Have you seen this thread?

Properly lubricated (this isn't done on new cars in the factory, and likely isn't done by dealers doing a strip & clean, or pad replacement), the 500/Panda brakes will give many thousands of miles of trouble free service.

If assembled dry and used in the UK, one decent winter will quite likely ruin them.

The forum is littered with posts from folks who've needed complete disc & pad replacement after sometimes as little as 12 months/10,000 miles. I did this shortly after both my cars were delivered new; on the Panda, the front pads & discs worked faultlessly for 49000 miles before needing replacement due to normal wear. The 500 is now over 6 years old and about 34,000 miles; it's still running the original pads & discs.

The setup on those cars with rear discs seems to be the most problematic of the lot in this regard.

Pragmatically, on a car out of warranty, getting the whole lot cleaned & lubricated by someone who knows what they're doing is likely to be the easiest way of resolving your problem. Better still, do it yourself - it might not cost you anything at all if the parts are still good enough to reuse.



I welcome technical innovation - I don't want to go back to the 1950's - providing it's implemented using parts of sufficient quality to last the expected life of the product.

IMO the real problem is that the manufacturer's relentless drive for cheapness means these solutions are implemented using parts that are prone to premature failure and expensive to replace.

I'd read about this a while ago and honestly thought a dealer would at least do a reasonable job of applying copperease and cleaning them. I had always intended doing this once out of warranty but if it turns out the pads and or discs are Ruined I was hoping I'd get fiat to pay for them.

Thanks for linking to the post though. I'll certainly do this once I've a final decision from fiat.

 

[Graham GB]

From what I've seen the fault is hopefully logged regardless of the warning light. That said, I had a warning light and can't find any logged error which says the warning light would have been illuminated due to it. Hence why I now hope this was totally due to a low battery. I would hope that as the voltage can drop and rise through normal use and anyone can change a battery (not just a dealer) then that type of error may not even get logged. I'll know if it happens again as I'll plug in and look for an error.

I doubt the dealer would take my word for it but I would strongly argue that I would tell them what the error logged was and as such I don't see why I'd be paying another £100 to confirm something. This is my 4th fiat and to be honest it's been the most temperamental with the brake noise, dash rattle, poor start/stop, other random errors messages in the early days before a software upgrade and also I suspect the climate control has something wrong with it but the dealer could hear the load discharge sound I described when it was in for a service (sorry I digress). Each dealer seems to give very different service. I'm still waiting for word back on my brakes which apparently have been referred to Italy even though they been like this from nearly new and each year on the service I complain about them and have previously paid to have them striped and cleaned which lasted all of a week.

It all depends on how much information you want to be armed with. For me, £55 to have the facility to know before I take it in (and I can use time and time again) is worth it even though I also feel I shouldn't have to go through this to avoid dealer fees to plug it into a computer at their PC.

I can only imaging how bad this is going to get in the future with autonomous cars with highly precise radar, 3D cameras, etc.

Once again thanks,i'm going back in to the Dealer to talk to the Service Manager,i want to know why any faults have not shown up on their diagnostic machine,which they have supposed to have used to do the new Factory downloads.
I'm a bit dim with electronics(well everything according to my BH),so i'm going to try & let him do the talking & i'll take notes.
Is the Diagnostic Device you have commercially available?,if so how much diagnosing is it capable of,compared to the dealer device?,if that can be answered.
Cheers,Graham.

 

[philboo]

Once again thanks,i'm going back in to the Dealer to talk to the Service Manager,i want to know why any faults have not shown up on their diagnostic machine,which they have supposed to have used to do the new Factory downloads.

I'm a bit dim with electronics(well everything according to my BH),so i'm going to try & let him do the talking & i'll take notes.

Is the Diagnostic Device you have commercially available?,if so how much diagnosing is it capable of,compared to the dealer device?,if that can be answered.

Cheers,Graham.

This is what I bought based on the advice on the fiat forum for a nice member. https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/161715574443

This is a reader and all the cables you need.

You need this software http://www.multiecuscan.net which needs a Windows PC

I had to register the software to work with the reader from eBay. It's €50 to register which was about £40.

It took no effort to use. You remove the plastic panel between the drivers footwell (just below the steering wheel) and the driver's door. The panel just pulls off. The OBD port is behind it at the top (I'd seen a fiat engineer do this in the past when they forgot to reset my service indicator).

You plug the reader directly in and then select on the software the module you're wanting to connect to. For some you use the yellow adaptor cable (which comes with that reader), the software prompts you when it needs it.

I'm sure you can get a reader that works without having to register the software but to be honest I'm not begrudging paying £40 when someone has gone to the trouble to write software to help us all out.

The software is easy to use and you can quickly see any errors.

I know others have probably alternative readers to suggest but this was the one I was pointed towards. I also bought another which I haven't even tried but it was only £5.99 so no too bothered if I don't have any use for it.

Hope that helps.

 

[Graham GB]

Thanks,i'm looking into it,i have some doubts about my ability to get this working & use.
So i'll read as much as i can before ordering.
Many thanks for the info.
Cheers,Graham.

 

[jrkitching]

Thanks,i'm looking into it,i have some doubts about my ability to get this working & use.
So i'll read as much as i can before ordering.
Many thanks for the info.
Cheers,Graham.

Start by just buying the cables and getting the free demo version working properly - that way, you'll have some idea about whether your abilities are commensurate with the needs of this product before committing €50 to it.

 

[varesecrazy]

Start by just buying the cables and getting the free demo version working properly - that way, you'll have some idea about whether your abilities are commensurate with the needs of this product before committing €50 to it.

the exact advise I gave philboo,
but he needed the FULL ACCESS version ( 50 EURO)to read the troublesome part

Graham GB , if I wasn't @130 miles away I'd offer to do it for you.

MES is basically capable of ALL the dealer diag. machine , apart from key coding ( and factory updates - but that's ALWAYS going the be "in-house")

Charlie - Oxford

 

[varesecrazy]

I'm not sure if i should post our recent experience with our Panda T/A,in this thread or start a new thread,it is related to the Diagnostics/Triangle of Doom,so i'll stick it here & see how it goes.
Our Panda recently had a factory recall for an indicator light problem,carried out at the Fiat dealer we bought the Car from(ex-dem),the recall was for some sort of update to the computer.
The indicator fault was corrected but a headlamp problem developed with the update,so the car had to be booked back in pending info from Fiat(which took 6 weeks)
To get to the main point,after the recall/download,the Triangle indicator light started to come on randomly so we reported this & where told it would be rectified when the car was in for the new download.
This has just been carried out but the Triangle warning was still coming on(along with a Stop/Start disconnected warning)
So the car went back to the dealer yesterday & we where informed that the triangle didn't come on while hooked up to the diagnostic machine,so they couldn't obtain a "CODE" for the fault,but the mechanic "thought" it may be a possible brake sensor issue,which predictably means we will have to pay for a new diagnostic check,because it's not connected to the initial indicator problem.
I'd appreciate any help words of wisdom about how to proceed with this,firstly should the Diagnostic machine have shown up a fault,even though the Triangle warning was not displaying.
Cheers,Graham.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/434474-panda-recall-rhd-body-computer-headlights.html

not sure if you'd seen it.., Charlie

 

[Graham GB]

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/434474-panda-recall-rhd-body-computer-headlights.html

not sure if you'd seen it.., Charlie

Hi,i'm not sure if this was meant for me,but i've now read the whole thread(i had actually posted in it about our original recall)
What i'm finding interesting is the comments about the Stop/Start system behaviour changing,our S/S is now switching on/off by itself randomly on starting the car(or it appears to be) & occasionally the S/S switch light goes on/off while driving & even more interestingly,the dreaded Triangle appears to illuminate with S/S switch light appears/disappears,if you see what i mean.
More ammunition to fire a the S/M at the dealership.

I will buy the diagnostic box & try the free software as varescrazy suggests.

 

[AusPanda]

I've just found this thread - been away a lot with work.

I don't know if this is of any help, but when I bought my 2013MY Easy T/A manual,(with 4km on the odo) it began registering a fault ESC and TC not available and the warning triangle.

After maybe five starts (over the course of my 900km drive home) it became a hard fault - ie, until then, the fault would disappear on start-up, then appear after a short while driving. After then, it was always lit up when starting.

After the first dealer clearing the codes and not finding a fault, the second dealer spending two hours with the car finally found the problem -- poor wheel alignment. Apparently the s/wheel angle sensor and the other sensors were not in agreement so it threw a code.

Wheel alignment fixed, codes cleared, no codes reappeared.

I had noticed the car pulling slightly to the right from time to time but because it was so new and I was getting to know it, I hadn't paid close enough attention.

It's been almost two years, but the same warning lights came up yesterday. I have noticed the s/wheel cantered slightly to the right, so prob wheel alignment again (had one done a year ago).

On re-start and 50km after that, no more lights.

 

[g8rpi]

I know this is an old thread but I came across it and so may others, so I want to clear up a misconception. A low cost USB ELM 327 interface and Multiecuscan will work fine for all modules in modern (about post 2006) Fiats, not just the engine ECU. You may need an adaptor lead or two for some modules on some models, but an interface and four colour coded leads can be had for around £20. Search ebay and Amazon. Make sure you get one specified or "modified" for use with multiecuscan. The modification is the removal of a 120 ohm resistor that the far eastern makers mistakenly include in the interface (it's already in the car). The really cheap interfaces (£5-6) have this problem. USB is more reliable than bluetooth for critical functions.

Robert G8RPI

 

[R1NGA]

I know this is an old thread but I came across it and so may others, so I want to clear up a misconception. A low cost USB ELM 327 interface and Multiecuscan will work fine for all modules in modern (about post 2006) Fiats, not just the engine ECU. You may need an adaptor lead or two for some modules on some models, but an interface and four colour coded leads can be had for around £20. Search ebay and Amazon. Make sure you get one specified or "modified" for use with multiecuscan. The modification is the removal of a 120 ohm resistor that the far eastern makers mistakenly include in the interface (it's already in the car). The really cheap interfaces (£5-6) have this problem. USB is more reliable than bluetooth for critical functions.

Robert G8RPI

Completely agree with all of the above and can confirm that it's the Yellow adapter that's needed with the USB cable to switch off the poxy seatbelt warning beeper. Which interestingly enough NOW appears in the onboard menu system to allow me to re-enable it from the dash selector without the need for any more Multiecuscan.