Technical Non starting 1.9JTD 105 05 reg

[Retro Pedro]

Plea for advice and help please
I've got a 1.9JTD 8 valve 105 Doblo diesel that doesn't want to start. Initially my suspicions are fuel starvation.
A couple of weeks back I was starting to get problems with it cutting out after start up. Car would start and run OK until I came to a junction and it would just cut out with a flashing glow plug light evident. Car would restart no problems straight away and after a few repeat situations it would warm up and run normally.
The car as been jacked up at the front and not started for approx. 10 days whilst I was replacing both lower front wishbones and engine mount. Got it all back together and front wheels back on and back down on the ground. Now it won't start. The battery was struggling to turn it over so I whipped it off and gave the battery a recharge. Turns the engine over fine now but still it won't start.
My first thought was that maybe the fuel ran back and created an airlock. Thought OK, should I be buying myself a 12 volt small priming pump and reprime the fuel system. Had a hunt on this forum and found a thread in the Stilo section and it seems the 1.9JTD is self priming. Read that the procedure is to switch the ignition on for 10 seconds without trying to start the engine. Repeat this 4 to 5 times and the fuel system should prime itself. Tried this and it made no difference, still not starting. Next, in turn, I disconnected the fuel pipes from the main fuel filter to try and see if fuel was being pushed up by the tank lift pump. With the use of a glass jar, I turned the engine to try and judge how much fuel was being delivered to the filter. I would describe the fuel flow rate as a dribble rather than a flow so I'm wondering if that is correct. I then reconnected the feed line and unclipped the line that feeds the main fuel pump. Again, only a dribble comes through. That sort of told be the filter is allowing diesel through but I'm not convinced about the non existant flow rate.
Had I had a convincing flow rate, I was going to slightly crack off one of the fuel feed pipes from the pump to the injector to see if fuel was getting drawn in and pressurised by the main pressure pump. But without a decent flow rate reaching the pressure pump, thought this might be a no no. Had I got to the stage of proving I had good fuel pressure reaching the injectors I would have thought the problem would have been electrical/sensor related with the ECU not allowing the injectors to pulse.
At the moment I'm thinking that maybe I should be finding the tank lift pump and see if there's any blockages or dirt clogging the filter. Then maybe check the fuel pipes to see if there is anything suspicious with kinks etc. causing any problems. That said, I can't see any evidence of fuel leaking under the car.
Going back to the main pressure pump, I do need to check the cam belt but in all honesty, I don't thing anything will be wrong with the belt because it was only recently replaced.
Any advice or pointers would be very much appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,
sounds like it's an odd fault,
are you SURE it's not immobilised..?? locked-out fuel supply pump..??,

I would get the codes read before spending any money on parts,

check you've not disturbed any wiring around battery,
where you've worked,

Charlie

 

[Retro Pedro]

Thanks for reply Charlie
Not sure if I've done the right thing or not but got talking to a fella today that said about shortening out residue electric power to see if that would clear any faults. Procedure being to switch ignition on, remove battery completely and move out of the way then arch across the positive and negative battery leads (by touching them together). Then put the battery back on and try to start the car. I did hear a plunger activate/engage on what I assume is the fuel pressure pump valve/switch module position above the pump.
Unfortunately I had to reload the ignition and net result was the car didn't start.
I've got the fuel tank lift pump connections exposed in the car and think I'll try and syringe fuel down the feed and return fuel pipes to prove there a no kinks or blockages in the pipes. Then I'll get a direct 12 volt feed on the lift pump to see if I can confirm no problems in that area. If all that proves good then back into the engine bay to see if I can sort out a code reader. First call I'm wondering whether to cover my tracks and try my luck with AA homestart.
If no joys with that then I guess it will trying to source a code reader and if I can reveal any faults. Any advice on what affordable code reader to buy will be gratefully received. I did read on here about a free download software called FiatECUScan which I'll have to look into.
If it turns out that Charlie's theory of the immodiliser not allowing the pump to activate, is there a way of a short term bypass which would temperarily prove the point.

 

[fronteratech]

possible crank sensor

 

[Retro Pedro]

possible crank sensor

Thanks for your reply fronteratech. Judging by your username I'm guessing you know quite a bit about Fronteras. One of my hidden fears is that if I keep trying to start it without fuel going through, does the Fiat pump suffer similar consequences as the Frontera 2.2 DTi major pump failure because of no fuel going through to lubricate it.
Also please can you advise where I will find the crank sensor. Is there a way of testing or is it a case of replacing and seeing if that works. Thanks for any advice.

 

[Retro Pedro]

Think you're bang on the money Charlie
After rigging up a hand pump with fuel pipe, I successful proved the pipes and filters where OK. Then I got the wife to turn the engine over on the ignition whilst I hand pumped fuel down the pressure pump feed pipe from a reservoir of diesel. Bingo, it started and ran all the while I was able to keep diesel pumping.
So tank lift pump is the prime suspect. Got the multimetre connected to the lift pump terminals. Initially got a 4 volt reading from the thinner guage wires but nothing from the thicker pump wires. Needed to rig up an electric feed from a spare battery to access to actual pump but couldn't find any connectors to rig to a spare 12 volt battery.
I then went on to check fuse F21 (fuel pump) in the fuse box under the bonnet. Fuse OK so tested with the multi meter - no reading so obviously power to the fuse box.
Next move was to attempt to change the glow plugs - really for elimination purposes and as I've got a new replacement set available. If I've found where the plugs are located looks easy enough but not the case.
Are the glow plugs located under what appears to be the securing brackets for the injectors. If they are, what throw me was that I couldn't see an electrical connector but then assumed the bracket acts as the connector if I right in my assumption. Got one hex bolt off and washers and felt the bracket was loose but for the life of me I can't pull the bracket off. Is there a special tool for doing this job. If I'm right in my assumptions and eventually successful in changing the glow plugs, the next move will be to source a code reader and download some software and have a go at checking fault codes and attemp removal/repair.

 

[fronteratech]

not same but similarity in cranksensor known a few go

 

[fronteratech]

Think you're bang on the money Charlie
After rigging up a hand pump with fuel pipe, I successful proved the pipes and filters where OK. Then I got the wife to turn the engine over on the ignition whilst I hand pumped fuel down the pressure pump feed pipe from a reservoir of diesel. Bingo, it started and ran all the while I was able to keep diesel pumping.
So tank lift pump is the prime suspect. Got the multimetre connected to the lift pump terminals. Initially got a 4 volt reading from the thinner guage wires but nothing from the thicker pump wires. Needed to rig up an electric feed from a spare battery to access to actual pump but couldn't find any connectors to rig to a spare 12 volt battery.
I then went on to check fuse F21 (fuel pump) in the fuse box under the bonnet. Fuse OK so tested with the multi meter - no reading so obviously power to the fuse box.
Next move was to attempt to change the glow plugs - really for elimination purposes and as I've got a new replacement set available. If I've found where the plugs are located looks easy enough but not the case.
Are the glow plugs located under what appears to be the securing brackets for the injectors. If they are, what throw me was that I couldn't see an electrical connector but then assumed the bracket acts as the connector if I right in my assumption. Got one hex bolt off and washers and felt the bracket was loose but for the life of me I can't pull the bracket off. Is there a special tool for doing this job. If I'm right in my assumptions and eventually successful in changing the glow plugs, the next move will be to source a code reader and download some software and have a go at checking fault codes and attemp removal/repair.

would check fuse feeding fuse box

 

[Retro Pedro]

Singing off the same hymn sheet Fronteratech
I done the glow plug multi meter reading test earlier today with only one plug giving a positive 1.3ohm reading. Nothing from the other three plugs.
I found some good guides from the Stilo section and it mentioned F4 50amp fuse. Mine looked OK but thinking about it afterwards I should have looked at the owners handbook to see exactly what is the feed fuse on the Doblo. The smaller 15 amp F21 fuse was OK.
I've since found where the glow plugs live and I can understand peeps say it's a right bar-steward. Initially I was thinking if it would be easier to disconnect the engine mounts and support with a hoist to allow the engine to come forward to give a bit more working room. Again, reading the Stilo guides on here, it seems that removal of the EGR valve and fuel return valve to allow the required working space for the plug replacement.
The warnings are there for stuck glow plugs and how easy it is to snap them off insitu, so I'm going the try and rig up a cable so that I can feed the lift pump direct from a 12 volt battery. The idea being to try and get the engine running for a while to get some heat down on the glow plugs.
Before doing that, as advised by Fronteratech, reckon checking the feeds to the fuses may throw up some answers.
I also need to check all the electrical connections because I may have dislodged something when I done the timing belt change. Engine was being lowered down and then up to get access to the timing belt end.

 

[Retro Pedro]

Beginning to think the none starting might have been self inflicted.
Not sure if my logic is right but I noticed that the lift pump feed wires are blue and brown, guess one live and one earth. Then having a tinker under the bonnet and noticed that there's a blue wire on the MAP sensor. As I wanted to get at the glow plugs thought it made sense to remove the MAP sensor. On removable I found the air bore channel blocked with black soft crud. Then proceeded to remove the EGR valve and found evidence of the same black crud.
I'm beginning to think that when I done the engine flush that possibly some of the flush/cleaner as penetrated the carbon in the EGR valve and softened it up allowing it to move along to the MAP.
From here, I'm going to clean out the removed EGR, attempt to replace the glow plugs and look to buy a new MAP sensor. Have seen on youtube how to test the MAP sensor, but by the time I buy a pressure guage, may as well add the difference and buy a new sensor to be sure.
If all goes to plan, and the motor starts I'll do the EGR valve cleaner through the air filter box job and hope that will shift any further soft crud from the inlet manifold.
I still need to sort out a code reader because the EML light was constantly on before the engine flush, it's only the flashing glow plug light that as been present since the engine flush.
Last but not least, I see what folk mean by how hard it is to get at the glow plugs on these engines.

 

[Retro Pedro]

would check fuse feeding fuse box

What fuse would that be Fronteratech?
Please can you advise where I would find it.

Beginning to lose the will to live with this motor now.

Had a thought that it might be the fuel cut off switch but finally found where it's located and tried to take a multimeter reading on the feed and no reading could be recorded. So that's another component related to the fuel feed that's not getting an electric feed.
Got the 'free' level MultiECUScan software on the laptop and bought both the code reading transponders (ELM327 and KL). With the ELM327 got the readings P0704 (Clutch switch), P1555 (Signal low) and P0235 (boost pressure sensor). Got to admit, my thoughts are how can it read the P0235 Boost pressure sensor if the car isn't running. Had a trawl through other posts and this combination of fault codes does seem to appear quite frequently. I've cleared the codes once but tried another check a few days later and they've re-appeared, so they must be stored on there somehow.
To date, I've had no luck with the KL code reader - keeps coming up COM1 doesn't read/connectk and ECU cannot be read. It does seem COM5 is the option so I'll have to keep trying to see if I can get a bit of success. The KL plug might be something to do with me finding correct drivers etc.:bang:
The weird thing is that if I can hot wire the fuel feed or put I 12V priming pump in the fuel line feed I'm pretty confident it will run. So somehow, it's got to be something cutting the electric feed to the lift pump in the tank. Immobiliser does come to mind, but the yellow padlock light comes on when the ignition key is turned to the first position but quickly goes off so I'm thinking the immobiliser is OK.

 

[Goudrons]

Forget those codes for now, think there's a hiccup in the Free Software.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gtv-and-916-spider/255225-fault-codes-from-fiat-ecu-scan.html
Seems you aren't the first or second to get all three codes.

If I was you, I'd check the output of the crank postion sensor.
With some proper software, you should get an RPM signal when cranking the engine.

If it's not putting out a signal that the engine is spinning up to the ECU, the ECU isn't going to bother activating the rest of the systems.

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-guides/147923-fiat-jtd-crank-rpm-sensor-removal-replacement.html

 

[Retro Pedro]

The good news:
It's alive and kicking
Turns out to have been a relay in the foot wheel. Came across a thread in the Ulysees section from another member on here. He had exactly the same symptoms as me on his 1.9JTD, only his dilema was that his relay was a moulded in version with a large £195 bill for a replacement.
I thought I had covered the relay checking by testing the components in the engine bay fusebox. Without any wiring diagrams for further reference, thought I'd have a look in the footwell fusebox. Pulled the 4 relays out and swapped over the single matching pair then reconnected. To my delight I could hear a buzzing from the tank lift pump. Prior to that, I had changed the cam sensor (better deal via Vauxhall purchase - same Bosch sensor) but hadn't finished reassembly, so I couldn't check for sure. Got it all back together today, first turn of the key and it fired up. I still need to check all the other electrics to test if there is a bad relay in there or if it was a matter of a sticking relay that as now freed itself off.

Now the bad news
When I changed the glow plugs I read somewhere that it was easier to remove the rocker cover. In my opinion, reckon that's false info. When I had it running by hand priming I noticed there as a fresh oil leak. Thinking the disturbed rocker cover gasket was the culprit, in amongst the other fetting, fitted a brand new gasket (not a geniune one which could possibly be a mistake). So the next task is to remove the cambelt covers and get the car back to a running status to see if I can pinpoint the new oil leak source. The oil flow is way above the sump so that rules out the sump gasket and I'm convinced there was no traces of oil from around the newly replace cam shaft seal.
The other annoyance is that the EML yellow light is still on, so have I fitted the new crank and cam sensors needlessly. Probably yes.
Getting pretty ofah at refitting the cam belts on the 1.9JTD now:bang:

 

[Retro Pedro]

At last - I'm confidently feeling we're up and finally running.
Traced the latest oil leak to the cam oil seal, and unfortunately I reckon it was self inflicted :bang:
Believe the score marks made by me whilst removing the original seal damaged the replacement. In with the emery cloth to smooth off the evident rough edges and then probably broke all the rules by putting a thin line off heat resistant holymer sealent in the seal housing. New seal tapped in, cam belt etc refitted, car started first turn of the key. Left it running for a fair bit and no oil leak
If anybody needs help with doing the cam belt, I'm your man. Three times that belt as been on and off doing these repairs.:doh:

 

[yj09]

hi, nice discission here, i go through net and try to find solution for my jtd105 marea. my car easily running on first start and never cut off for long journey. the problem is when the car switch off, it won,t start again.. just replace crank sensor (previous crank sensor in good condition after check), i also replace all glow plug (previous also working after check), i clean connector with contact cleaner, battery fully rechage at no load got 12.9v at starting above 10v. most error on code reader was clear, such glow plug, low temp (-c) intermittent maf etc.. currently got 1 error which i cannot read as my reader cannot connect to ecu, tomorrow get laptop which easy to connect. but now i suspect crank sensor still problem, i anyone have idea why my crank sensor always problem. i just replace crank sensor in april when reader cannot detect rpm, it did again a few week ago, replace but not work when 'hot' or after running engine. my starter also will spinning free on 'hot' engine without engage.

 

[yj09]

i will try to change battery and see what happen as the car started when jump. frankly i really down to this fiat intermittent or incosistent issue.. its already 1 month my issues not solved.

 

[camco]

Hi first time on hear for a long time been reading a few posts and seem like 'T' is the one to talk to so recently got a doblo 1.9 jtd 2004 82,000 miles on it it has back pressure out the dip stick also hard cold starting there is diesel leaking from injectors/ injector pipes but always drive totaly fine. I was driver back from scotland yesterday and heard a strange wering noise and then turbo died so no powere either i was thinking back pressure was caused by a blocked oil breather or feed to turbo which hac caused turbo to go ?? Really unsure tbh please help

 

[camco]

Have you tried resetting the fuel cutoff switch just a thought with it being jacked up :s can anyone help with my problem pls

 

[yj09]

dear camco, where do fuel cutoff located. this morning i tried to crank and it still won't start, an error shown on board but don't know as i cannot connect to ecu. this evening will try to connect the reader, suspected crank sensor again. base on myexperienc, my crank sensor always intermittent.. change to new unit it started and then fail. which relay, fuse, connection or related on craNk sensor assuming my battery in good cond. thanks

 

[Retro Pedro]

The fuel cut off button is located on the drivers side footwell (on right hand drive vehicle). It's bolted to the A piller just below knee height. If you follow the plastic kick panel up the A piller you will find an oval opening position approximately in the centre of the top edge of the kick panel. The oval opening is big enough you to get your finger in to push the fuel cut off switch button (which you need to do should you need to reset the switch). The fuel cut off switch works on inertia, rather like a seat belt.
Going on to your replaced crank sensor, did you fit a genuine part? When I replaced mine I insisted on an exact replacement Bosch component as opposed to the item the motor factors wanted to sale me (believe Lucas). I had to wait longer for delivery and pay more for the sensor, but for me it took another risk factor out of the equation.
A few years back I got caught out by not fitting a genuine electrical replacement part, hence me going on the side of caution ever since.