Technical New timing belt, engine doesn't start.

[lowaaa]

Hi there, I have a fiat punto 1.2, 8v engine, 2004. I just changed the timing belt, and the engine won't start. The exhaust will blow as I turn the ignition and the engine will constantly fail to start but it'll rotate the timing belt. I also smell petrol so I know the petrol's being pushed from the back to the front. I honestly don't know what it could be?

I believe the top bit (camshaft i think?) is aligned properly, as there was a white marker made previously that aligned the camshaft to the back of the engine block. So I've aligned that, although, for the phonic wheel, I don't know if that's aligned properly? How do I properly align / time these together? What else could be the possible cause the engines not starting?

The battery did die but I used those jump starter kits, so it can't be the battery. Is this just a situation where I take off the timing belt, I spin the phonic wheel a different position, put the timing belt back on and test the engine again and repeat these steps? OR is there a quicker way?

Any help would be welcomed, first time doing a timing belt

 

[portland_bill]

The crank and camshafts have to be synchronised with each other, hence the name, 'timing' belt.
On older engines there are timing marks on crank and cam wheels. Later engines have no marks, and need a timing tool kit that holds the crank and camshaft in the correct places.

Being that you have the earlier narrower belt, I think there should be timing marks. The different width belts also have different tooth shapes, so make sure the belt tooth fits the shape of the pulley teeth.

Have a look in the Guides section, as there is a very good one there about Punto.

 

[Popitinpete]

Hi there, I have a fiat punto 1.2, 8v engine, 2004. I just changed the timing belt, and the engine won't start. The exhaust will blow as I turn the ignition and the engine will constantly fail to start but it'll rotate the timing belt. I also smell petrol so I know the petrol's being pushed from the back to the front. I honestly don't know what it could be?

I believe the top bit (camshaft i think?) is aligned properly, as there was a white marker made previously that aligned the camshaft to the back of the engine block. So I've aligned that, although, for the phonic wheel, I don't know if that's aligned properly? How do I properly align / time these together? What else could be the possible cause the engines not starting?

The battery did die but I used those jump starter kits, so it can't be the battery. Is this just a situation where I take off the timing belt, I spin the phonic wheel a different position, put the timing belt back on and test the engine again and repeat these steps? OR is there a quicker way?

Any help would be welcomed, first time doing a timing belt

Its out of time by the sounds of it, did you undo the camshaft (top) wheel?

Get a timing tool locking kit and follow the guides on here.

Should have marked the bottom pulley too, sounds like a simple timing set up job. If both had been marked prior its just a matter of lining them back up, now it's all over the place you will have to start from scratch with the timing tools and follow the guides

 

[lowaaa]

they were

Its out of time by the sounds of it, did you undo the camshaft (top) wheel?

Get a timing tool locking kit and follow the guides on here.

Should have marked the bottom pulley too, sounds like a simple timing set up job. If both had been marked prior its just a matter of lining them back up, now it's all over the place you will have to start from scratch with the timing tools and follow the guides

Understood thank you I'll go get a timing tool kit from halfords. Funny thing is I almost got it started. heart the engine starting then it gave up. But it's close! but I'm not gonna keep guessing the position of the bottom one. I'll just go get the tool kit.

Can you send me a link on how to use it if you've got one ? I'll check youtube too

 

[Popitinpete]

they were

Understood thank you I'll go get a timing tool kit from halfords. Funny thing is I almost got it started. heart the engine starting then it gave up. But it's close! but I'm not gonna keep guessing the position of the bottom one. I'll just go get the tool kit.

Can you send me a link on how to use it if you've got one ? I'll check youtube too

Yea you should have used the tools or marked it before you took it off.

I haven't got a link no, search on here or just search on YouTube there's loads

 

[judderbar]

I dont think you need special tools for an 8V engine. You need those for the 16v engine.

I am guessing you have not used the correct marks.

 

[lowaaa]

I have for the top part of the engine. I dont know about the bottom. I literally ran out if all ideas. I've used the correct Mark's. the phonic I'm unsure of. Is there anythig else I should be doing?

I refit the belt on, I push the tension pulley outwards so theres a gap and the belts tight.

I then fit the phonic wheel, with the alternator belt too. Then I try start the engine and it doesnt start.

 

[judderbar]

I have for the top part of the engine. I dont know about the bottom. I literally ran out if all ideas. I've used the correct Mark's. the phonic I'm unsure of. Is there anythig else I should be doing?

I refit the belt on, I push the tension pulley outwards so theres a gap and the belts tight.

I then fit the phonic wheel, with the alternator belt too. Then I try start the engine and it doesnt start.

near the thermostat on the gearbox side, there is a rubber inspection cover in the clutch bellhousing. Are their timing marks on the flywheel?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

2004 8 valve engine? Well, the good news is that this should be a non interference engine so the valves and pistons don't touch if you get the timing dramatically wrong! and as you say your engine is spinning over but not starting this may well be what is wrong.

The earlier 8 valve engines had timing marks on both the crank and cam sprockets, later had no marks on the cam sprocket but still had them on the crank. At 2004 it's quite likely your's will be the earlier design. The mark on the cam sprocket can be seen with the plastic belt cover removed but to see the crankshaft mark you have to remove the bottom fan belt pulley (phonic wheel).

Here's a previous post from the forum which may help: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/photos-of-timing-marks-8v-f-i-r-e-engines.19733/

These photos are from quite an early engine and show a pressed steel camshaft sprocket. (our old 1999 Panda had one like this) Soon after this they changed to a cast sprocket but the timing marks are in the same place. If you have a later engine then there will be no notch on the camshaft sprocket and you'll need to buy the timing tools which allow the engine to be locked up in the correct position.

By the way, I've seen a number of publications which show the timing mark for the crankshaft sprocket incorrectly. There is a nice long line on the sprocket itself which gets lined up with the "step" in the aluminium casting of the oil pump on the front of the engine - as shown in the first photo. On later engines there is a "pip" in the casting near to the rounded "lump" - seen in the photo to the left of the indicating line - If you time it to this mark you'll end up with the timing approx one tooth retarded and she won't run so good. One large and prestigious manufacturer actually shows this wrongly on the instruction sheet in it's kits!

Hope this helps
Jock

Edit PS - This picture shows the wrong timing mark being used - to the best of my knowledge: https://www.vcjshop.top/ProductDetail.aspx?iid=182166970&pr=58.88. I timed mine up to the "step" in the casting when I did both my Panda and my boy's Punto and they both run very "sweetly"

 

[lowaaa]

near the thermostat on the gearbox side, there is a rubber inspection cover in the clutch bellhousing. Are their timing marks on the flywheel?

Uhh where abouts is this? everything's covered in grease / oil.from the previous owner

 

[lowaaa]

2004 8 valve engine? Well, the good news is that this should be a non interference engine so the valves and pistons don't touch if you get the timing dramatically wrong! and as you say your engine is spinning over but not starting this may well be what is wrong.

The earlier 8 valve engines had timing marks on both the crank and cam sprockets, later had no marks on the cam sprocket but still had them on the crank. At 2004 it's quite likely your's will be the earlier design. The mark on the cam sprocket can be seen with the plastic belt cover removed but to see the crankshaft mark you have to remove the bottom fan belt pulley (phonic wheel).

Here's a previous post from the forum which may help: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/photos-of-timing-marks-8v-f-i-r-e-engines.19733/

These photos are from quite an early engine and show a pressed steel camshaft sprocket. (our old 1999 Panda had one like this) Soon after this they changed to a cast sprocket but the timing marks are in the same place. If you have a later engine then there will be no notch on the camshaft sprocket and you'll need to buy the timing tools which allow the engine to be locked up in the correct position.

By the way, I've seen a number of publications which show the timing mark for the crankshaft sprocket incorrectly. There is a nice long line on the sprocket itself which gets lined up with the "step" in the aluminium casting of the oil pump on the front of the engine - as shown in the first photo. On later engines there is a "pip" in the casting near to the rounded "lump" - seen in the photo to the left of the indicating line - If you time it to this mark you'll end up with the timing approx one tooth retarded and she won't run so good. One large and prestigious manufacturer actually shows this wrongly on the instruction sheet in it's kits!

Hope this helps
Jock

Edit PS - This picture shows the wrong timing mark being used - to the best of my knowledge: https://www.vcjshop.top/ProductDetail.aspx?iid=182166970&pr=58.88. I timed mine up to the "step" in the casting when I did both my Panda and my boy's Punto and they both run very "sweetly"

thank you for this reply can you see my.photos please above? where is the step ;(?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

thank you for this reply can you see my.photos please above? where is the step ;(?

Ok. Thinking about the front of the pulley/sprocket as if it were a clock face. You can see the threaded bolt hole - where one of the three phonic wheel bolts goes - at roughly 10 o'clock? opposite it, on the casting, is the "false" timing mark - I called it a "pip" above. Look at the thin edged bit of the casting above it and follow it slightly to the right (clockwise) where you'll see it changes direction and looks a bit brighter because the light is reflecting from it. That peak, where it changes direction, is where your sprocket/pulley timing mark/line should be lined up with. If you look at the peak of where it changes direction it's like a little accented peak before it changes to a more gradual, approx 45 degree, slope. It's this peak you're lining up with.

Now looking at the second of your photos. The cam sprocket. You can plainly see the mark on the sprocket/pulley which looks like you've outlined it with some white chalk? As your engine has marks on both the cam and crank pulleys then you definitely don't need the timing tools - If you dismantled these pulleys from their shafts you'd find both the pulleys are keyed to their shafts. The engines which don't have timing marks on their cam pulley have unkeyed cam shafts which is why you need the timing tools! Now, looking at that second picture again, the timing mark for that top pulley is that little squared off projection, part of the head, behind the convoluted electric wire. You'll need to turn the cam pulley a bit clockwise from it's shown position to get it to line up with the groove in the squared off bit of casting.

When you've got the belt fitted and tensioned turn the engine over by two turns of the crankshaft. stop when the crankshaft pulley mark is lined up with the casting and check out that the camshaft pulley mark is still lining up with the mark on the wee squared off bit of casting on the head. Normally you'd be doing this very carefully to check for valves getting "friendly" with pistons, but our earlier 8 valve engines don't do this so all you're checking for is that the marks still line up and the belt tension is correct (I'm guessing you've not got the automatic spring loaded tensioner?)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just a wee thought to add in here. from what I can see in your pictures, it looks like you are just leaving the old water pump in place? Do you know how old that pump is? I'd guess it's the same age as the belt and if so you'd be wise to change it. Water pump bearings are known to fail when old and if they do the timing belt is very likely to jump teeth and leave you with an engine which won't run - we're very lucky with our non interference engines because on most modern engines a failure like this would at least cause some expensive damage and at worst completely write off the engine. However an engine which suddenly stops and leaves you stranded is best avoided. Of course the pump just might last for quite a while yet but it's a good bet it'll fail before the next belt needs done? I always fit a complete belt kit - belt, tensioner and water pump - when doing these. At the very least give the pump pulley a couple of good spins and feel to see if the bearings feel even slightly rough. If they do definitely change the pump - The coolant is probably near the end of it's recommended life span anyway and changing the pump gives you the opportunity to do coolant as well?

 

[portland_bill]

The good news, you have the early engine, and do not need the timing tools.
Your engine has the factory timing marks.
See the attached Fiat instructions, the pics are quite good, and will help you align the pulleys correctly.
As Jock says, change that pump. Make sure you get the early pump, with a pulley that matches the teeth of the belt. And get one with a metal impeller, not a plastic one. The plastic ones can become loose, leading to overheating. You'll need some silicone sealant for the pump, and new coolant. Use only a little sealant, not lots. Excess will get into the coolant and possibly restrict coolant flow in the tightest places.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The good news, you have the early engine, and do not need the timing tools.
Your engine has the factory timing marks.
See the attached Fiat instructions, the pics are quite good, and will help you align the pulleys correctly.
As Jock says, change that pump. Make sure you get the early pump, with a pulley that matches the teeth of the belt. And get one with a metal impeller, not a plastic one. The plastic ones can become loose, leading to overheating. You'll need some silicone sealant for the pump, and new coolant. Use only a little sealant, not lots. Excess will get into the coolant and possibly restrict coolant flow in the tightest places.

Thanks PB. Just a pity it shows the crank pulley illustration "upside down" at the top of page 3. Took me a couple of minutes to figure out why it was showing the timing mark on the right hand side of the pulley?

 

[portland_bill]

Thanks for pointing that out Jock, hadn't really looked at it closely.

This one shows it better, third and fourth pics.

 

[lowaaa]

Just a wee thought to add in here. from what I can see in your pictures, it looks like you are just leaving the old water pump in place? Do you know how old that pump is? I'd guess it's the same age as the belt and if so you'd be wise to change it. Water pump bearings are known to fail when old and if they do the timing belt is very likely to jump teeth and leave you with an engine which won't run - we're very lucky with our non interference engines because on most modern engines a failure like this would at least cause some expensive damage and at worst completely write off the engine. However an engine which suddenly stops and leaves you stranded is best avoided. Of course the pump just might last for quite a while yet but it's a good bet it'll fail before the next belt needs done? I always fit a complete belt kit - belt, tensioner and water pump - when doing these. At the very least give the pump pulley a couple of good spins and feel to see if the bearings feel even slightly rough. If they do definitely change the pump - The coolant is probably near the end of it's recommended life span anyway and changing the pump gives you the opportunity to do coolant as well?

Yep bought the water pump as well, I was just making sure to mark the new belt properly

 

[lowaaa]

Thank you to everyone who commented on here, very detailed answers Thank you for the pdf as well! Got the engine started and it sounds and runs better already

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for pointing that out Jock, hadn't really looked at it closely.

This one shows it better, third and fourth pics.

That nailed it PB! Just love the belt tensioning tool!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I was just thinking about this thread and it occurs to me that there's a lesson to be learned here. The original poster, Iowaa, has had a very lucky escape here all due to the fact that these earlier versions of the FIRE engine are non interference. From the posts made and photos posted, I'm guessing he/she is a person of reasonable mechanical ability and has access to a good selection of tools otherwise they wouldn't have managed to do any of this - That engine mount isn't the easiest to strip out is it? However, if you're going to do a timing belt, the absolute minimum info you need to be sure of is that you know exactly what the timing procedure for your engine is and how to apply it. In this instance not only was Iowaa unsure about the correct timing marks but also he/she spun the engine over on the starter with the engine incorrectly timed. Had this been an interference type engine he/she would now be looking at either a big bill to sort out the mayhem or maybe even looking for a replacement engine.

I have a lot of sympathy for you Iowaa, I've done some pretty silly things when working on vehicles when I was younger. Paying "professionals" to sort your car is a good way to relieve your bank account of quite large quantities of cash, but can be a cheaper/safer option if you're unsure about what you're doing. So, it's not my intention to put anyone off working on their car, just be very sure of what you're getting into before you start and avail yourself of the relevant info before picking up a tool. As you've seen here there is a great wealth of knowledge in the forum so just ask us all to help if you're unsure.

Lastly, Iowaa, you say you've got it running and it "sounds and runs "better". Do you think it's running at least as well as it previously did or are there still problems? All best wishes to you. Jock