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General My 1.4 will only start on SECOND attempt, when cold. Cause??

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General My 1.4 will only start on SECOND attempt, when cold. Cause??

J

Jack

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As above, my 2008 1.4 requires a second attempt, in order to start & run from cold. On the FIRST attempt, it seems to fire up momentarily, then dies - an immediate SECOND attempt then starts the car as normally expected.

Subsequent re-starts, with warm/hot engine always work FIRST time!

Any ideas, please, as to likely cause - ?
 
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I don't actually allow it any 'priming time', just jump in & turn the key straight to starting - it's a good idea of yours, to give it 10-secs (at least worth a try or two) - thanks!
 
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varesecrazy said:
I will ask..

Do you let the fuel pump build pressure in the fuel rail ( key at MAR it takes @10 seconds)
Before cranking the engine..??

A tired fuel pump needs time.. obviously if you energise the pump TWICE before the Engine Fires and Runs that could be contributing :)
Click to expand...
I can endorse this procedure. Turn the key to the first position and pause. You'll see the "padlock" immobilizer symbol come on and then, a very short while later, go out. This is confirming that the chip in the key and the car's immobilizer have performed a "handshake" and the immobilizer is now disabled. Although I've not experienced it - I'm old and slow - some on here have reported that if you twist the key all the way round to the starter motor position before this handshake properly takes place then it's possible the engine wil experience starting issues. Of course, as said above, pausing in the first position also lets the fuel pump build up pressure so increasing the likelyhood of a first crank start. If you listen carefully and there's not too much other noise going on, you can hear the pump run and then cut off as the safety cut off operates. - most electric fuel pumps cut off after a short period if the ECU fails to detect a running engine to reduce fire risk.

We do this when starting both our Panda and my boy's Punto and starting is good. I was slightly amused at my better half's explanation of why we do it. She thought it was like the glowplug light on our old diesel car which you had to wait for it to extinguish - which indicated the heater plugs were glowing - before starting. I did start to explain the difference to her but it all fell on deaf ears, however, who cares? because as long as she pauses the end result is good and it doesn't matter if she knows why she's doing it or not.
 
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Will definitely try (a) making sure foot is off throttle and (b) the '10-second rule' [also (c) using decent petrol] BUT all this 'problem' has only arisen in last 4-5 months, whereas before I always simply jumped in, turned key = first time start. So something must have changed! Ah well, will proceed accordingly & report back, soonest. Again, thanks for all the comments & suggestions.
 
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Jack said:
Will definitely try (a) making sure foot is off throttle and (b) the '10-second rule' [also (c) using decent petrol] BUT all this 'problem' has only arisen in last 4-5 months, whereas before I always simply jumped in, turned key = first time start. So something must have changed! Ah well, will proceed accordingly & report back, soonest. Again, thanks for all the comments & suggestions.
Click to expand...
In practice its only about 4 seconds to wait(click the seat belt in), have you got Iridium plugs in?
 
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You WILL HEAR THE PUMP.. 😉

So will now when it has reached SystemPressure and switched itself off :cool:


I only run Supermarket fuel.. try what you have before switching.

Foot off the pedal.. turn key to MAR

HEAR PUMP RUN

When pump has finished.. crank engine


Should Fire and run.. just like your
'Traditional 2nd attempt'



Do let us know (y)
 
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Interesting this - difficult to be scientific but have there been a few reports of this lately? A 2015 Panda 1.2 in my acquaintance is also doing this, but somewhat worse. Waiting for the pump to prime does not seem to affect things. From stone cold the other day, it turned over without any hint of a fire for several seconds. Second attempt there was a hint of it trying to catch (but didn't, again after a good several seconds of cranking). And then third time it burst into life straight away. It does seem like a fuel thing, and only became an issue in the last couple of months (not sure if temperature drop is significant). E10 fuel related? Dodgy batch in the southern half of the country (noting OP is from Wiltshire)...?
 
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Just to respond to some of latest comments:
(to Puntodeltathem) Issue first arose a few months ago, when weather was actually quite HOT, so not related to current cold weather, in my case at least.
(to koalar) No need for jump lead, as turning over just fine.
(to John 202020)Althogh car is 2008, it's only done 27K miles and has original spark plugs in situ.
(general) I've NEVER heard the fuel pump , prior to engine start but I will make a special point of listening for it now!
 
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Jack said:
(to koalar) No need for jump lead, as turning over just fine.
Click to expand...
Battery dropping to 5.5V am still cranking is normal. Look at the thread where the clocks start to flash due to going below the 5V to keep the real time clock working yet are still turn over fine

Once it close to the 5V reference it will turn over fine but can’t read the sensors correctly

I don’t see why the reluctance. It eliminates two components for no parts cost except the two minutes in time.


Plus it fits the symptoms
 
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koalar said:
Before you start the car from cold

Attach some jump leads

And try


How to jump start a car in 9 steps | The AA

How to jump start a car step by step guide. Learn how to safely jump start a dead battery by using another car or a battery booster pack.
www.theaa.com www.theaa.com
Click to expand...
What a great guide koalar, one of the best I've seen for general guidance on this subject. I think the AA, for once, are to be thoroughly commended.

In particular the advice to allow the batteries to remain connected together for a wee while before attempting to start. This allows the state of charge on the surface of the plates in the "flat" battery to be lifted to a reasonable level before either car's alternator regulator ecu can "see" it which should greatly reduce the risk of a spike when the engines are run. Also connecting the earth lead to the engine block/chassis earth on the stricken vehicle should avoid the battery condition monitor sensor (all stop/start vehicles have these) being damaged - in the old days we did this to avoid any spark from igniting battery gasses but now it's more important than ever due to these condition monitors (you can usually see them on the battery negative terminal, if you're curious). Not disconnecting the leads immediately after a successful start is good practice too as it lets battery levels equalize. Finally, and against all your instincts, you should stop both engines before disconnecting, again to stop the possibility of a spike. Unless the "flat" battery is totally "goosed" you'll usually find the flat battery will have enough "go" in it to restart the engine as long as you don't let it stand for too long and then, of course, you need to run the engine - slightly more than tickover speed, say 1500 to 2000 rpm should do it - or drive around for a while to put some charge into it. However a battery charger - smart one please - will actually do a better job of this.

Have to say though that connecting two modern cars together in this way still gives me the heebie jeebies! the consequences of getting it wrong can be cripplingly expensive. I'm still prepared to be a "good samaritan" to family and the neighbours but I wouldn't go out of my way to offer help to a stranger however I only do this using my big old stand alone 75ah lead acid battery - ex my old diesel Cordoba, now gone to the happy scrappy in the sky - don't do it vehicle to vehicle. I've never used one but have been aware for some time of anti surge jump leads - think they have a fast blow fusible link? Anyone know if they are any good?
 
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Pugglt Auld Jock said:
What a great guide koalar, one of the best I've seen for general guidance on this subject. I think the AA, for once, are to be thoroughly commended.

In particular the advice to allow the batteries to remain connected together for a wee while before attempting to start. This allows the state of charge on the surface of the plates in the "flat" battery to be lifted to a reasonable level before either car's alternator regulator ecu can "see" it which should greatly reduce the risk of a spike when the engines are run. Also connecting the earth lead to the engine block/chassis earth on the stricken vehicle should avoid the battery condition monitor sensor (all stop/start vehicles have these) being damaged - in the old days we did this to avoid any spark from igniting battery gasses but now it's more important than ever due to these condition monitors (you can usually see them on the battery negative terminal, if you're curious). Not disconnecting the leads immediately after a successful start is good practice too as it lets battery levels equalize. Finally, and against all your instincts, you should stop both engines before disconnecting, again to stop the possibility of a spike. Unless the "flat" battery is totally "goosed" you'll usually find the flat battery will have enough "go" in it to restart the engine as long as you don't let it stand for too long and then, of course, you need to run the engine - slightly more than tickover speed, say 1500 to 2000 rpm should do it - or drive around for a while to put some charge into it. However a battery charger - smart one please - will actually do a better job of this.

Have to say though that connecting two modern cars together in this way still gives me the heebie jeebies! the consequences of getting it wrong can be cripplingly expensive. I'm still prepared to be a "good samaritan" to family and the neighbours but I wouldn't go out of my way to offer help to a stranger however I only do this using my big old stand alone 75ah lead acid battery - ex my old diesel Cordoba, now gone to the happy scrappy in the sky - don't do it vehicle to vehicle. I've never used one but have been aware for some time of anti surge jump leads - think they have a fast blow fusible link? Anyone know if they are any good?
Click to expand...
Yep

Doing it this way immediately eliminates two parts

Battery, earth lead

It not unusual for people to needlessly change the earth lead and or battery instead of just temporary bypassing them.

If you change everything you will fix the problem. But most things can be discounted with simple tests

I not saying this is the problem. But as a simple test it’s a good first test.

Personally I would normally start by plugging in my scanner in and plot the voltage drop while cranking on a cold start and hot start and do voltage drop tests on the leads
 
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