Technical Multipla Wont Turn Over (not started in 3 years)

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Technical Multipla Wont Turn Over (not started in 3 years)

mikrussell

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Hey everyone!

I've got a Fiat Multipla project car!

It's been sat for 3 years. I charged up the battery and tried to start it. Battery holds 12.6v. I get all the lights on the dash. CODE light goes out. Glowplug light flashes for a while so probably got at least one faulty glowplug but that shouldn't matter too much. Car is on 98,000 miles.

I turn the key and all the lights go out on the dash and I hear a click. It doesn't turn over at all.

I've got a feeling the engine could be seized? Maybe a seized alternator or faulty starter or bad earth.

The starter earth on the gearbox looks fine visually. I've started taking the EGR section off to get to the starter.

Next I'm going to try turn the engine over by hand and try a known working battery.

Any advice you may have would be really appreciated. :worship:
 
Hey everyone!

I've got a Fiat Multipla project car!

It's been sat for 3 years. I charged up the battery and tried to start it. Battery holds 12.6v. I get all the lights on the dash. CODE light goes out. Glowplug light flashes for a while so probably got at least one faulty glowplug but that shouldn't matter too much. Car is on 98,000 miles.

I turn the key and all the lights go out on the dash and I hear a click. It doesn't turn over at all.

I've got a feeling the engine could be seized? Maybe a seized alternator or faulty starter or bad earth.

The starter earth on the gearbox looks fine visually. I've started taking the EGR section off to get to the starter.

Next I'm going to try turn the engine over by hand and try a known working battery.

Any advice you may have would be really appreciated. :worship:
Slow down.
The battery is almost certainly dead after sitting connected to the vehicle unused for 3years.
Try a new battery before anything else.
 
I think Jack has a point here. If it's really stood unused, without being charged separately, for 3 years the chances are the battery is now U/S due to sulphation of the plates. The thing is though that even a quite badly sulphated battery can be charged up and show good voltage when tested open circuit (so battery not powering anything) with a voltmeter, but will be incapable of delivering any useful current when a load is applied. You seem to have a voltmeter? If so the usual advice would be to stick it across the battery and see what the voltage is when the starter is trying to crank the engine. Low voltage = duff battery. However if the starter is seized so it can't turn at all - or if the engine itself is seized so the starter is being stalled - then the starter will be applying a straight short circuit to the battery (because the armature can't turn) so you would also expect to see low voltage due to this.

If you try this test and get low voltage then put a spanner on the crankshaft nut and see if you can turn the engine over. Or stick the vehicle in top gear and see if the crank moves when you move the vehicle - even 6" or so would be far enough as you only need to see a small movement. If the crank moves but voltage test still reads low then either duff battery or seized starter.
 
Thanks for the help guys. I wasn't aware a battery can be fully charged, show 12.6v+ and still not be able to provide any cranking amps. I'll try a known working battery and report back.
 
Thanks for the help guys. I wasn't aware a battery can be fully charged, show 12.6v+ and still not be able to provide any cranking amps. I'll try a known working battery and report back.
Just in case you're interested, and I'll try to keep this simple, your typical lead acid battery has lead plates - quite thin because that lets more plates be used and so more surface area and more surface area = more electricity available (capacity) for any given size of casing. They are arranged in cells with each cell producing just over 2 volts (around 2.2 actually which is why a fully charged battery - which has 6 cells for a 12 volt battery will read more than 12 volts! The "old" 6 volt batteries had, surprise surprise, 3 cells!) This might interest you: https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/a-guide-to-sealed-lead-acid-battery-construction/
The cells are flooded with a sulphuric acid liquid (electrolyte) which is trying all the time to form Sulphate on the surface of the lead plates. As the battery discharges the sulphate builds up on the surface of the plates but, as long as it's not given time to crystalize it will dissolve back into the electrolyte when the battery is recharged. The trouble comes if you leave the battery in a discharged state which is when the sulphate crystalizes and then won't dissolve when you try to charge it. This blocks the electrolyte's ability to react with the plate's surface so, in effect, with some of the plate's surface now blocked by the crystals, you now have a smaller battery because only some of the plate area is now reactive. Go far enough down this road and you'll end up with a big looking battery (physically it's size will be unchanged) but with the capacity of a tiddler and that's not going to hack it when you've an engine to turn over. This is most likely the problem you have. To a large extent you can slow this process to a minimum by keeping the battery well charged on a "smart" maintenance charger as sulphation happens slowest when the battery is kept well charged. Unfortunately you can't entirely stop it though so all lead acid batteries will eventually "die". Perhaps you can now see how a heavily sulphated battery with a lot of the surface area of it's plates covered with the solidified crystals can still charge up to show a good state of charge because each cell still has a small area of plate still reactive. When you try to pull current from a battery in this state each individual cell will discharge rapidly because it has no surface area to work with.

Interestingly what can also happen is that, especially as a battery ages, some of the plate material can flake off of the plate surface and build up a sludgy residue in the bottom of the cell. This sludge is somewhat electrically conductive and can cause a slow discharge of the cell. Typically with a battery suffering from this malady you will find it works quite well through your working day, starting the car even after it's stood for some time, but overnight the cells have plenty of time to discharge for longer and you find the car won't start in the morning. So, perhaps you get a jump start and it all works fine for that day, but then next morning it won't start again. Of course the same problem can happen if you've left something on like the interior light or maybe the glovebox or boot light isn't going out when you shut the lid. A few years ago, when batteries had removable plugs in the top of their cells, you could buy "battery reconditioning tablets" which you dropped into the cells of your aging battery to give it a fresh life. What these did - the ones that weren't "fizzy" fakes that is, was to chemically loosen some of the crystaline deposit from the plates so they could react again, and sometimes they were actually quite successful. The trouble was, of course that this loosened rubbish fell into the bottom of the cell and added to the shorting out problem!

So keeping your battery well charged is the way to go. Using it in a frequently run vehicle and not doing too many very short journeys is also good. If you have to lay it up then keep it well charged, probably on a maintenance charger but don't over charge it because you'll then loose electrolyte and any part of the plate not submerged will sulphate rapidly and become unusable. A modern "smart" charger is the way to go. and, as you alternator is specifically designed to stop short of overcharging your battery it's actually good for it to give it an overnight once or twice a year on your smart charger, even if you think the battery is absolutely fine, just to take it up to a full state of charge. I find on our cars the charger will usually charge a "good" battery in this way for about an hour before notching back to it's maintenance level.

If you'd like to punish/bore yourself further here's some not too terribly technical reading for you:
https://www.lifewire.com/car-batter... a Car,the plates through excessive sulfation.
and:
https://www.crownbattery.com/news/sulfation-and-battery-maintenance
Well I hope someone found that useful. A jiggered battery is such a bummer to deal with and it always seems to happen at just the worst possible time! Oh, and don't forget, most cars - but not absolutely all - with stop/start are going to have a battery condition monitor (sensor), most often a small black plastic thingy on the negative battery terminal, which may well need to be reprogrammed when a battery has been allowed to get especially flat or when a new battery is fitted. My Ibiza is like that but I'm not so sure about my older boy's 2012 Punto Easy which does have one but I think? is happy to sort itself out - we will be fitting a new battery to it in the next couple of days so I'm about to find out!

And a wee PS. Regarding that battery condition monitoring sensor? If you've got one, and if you've got stop/start you almost certainly have, then your battery charger's negative connection must not go to the battery negative but connect it to a chassis earth point - engine block works well - or the sensor can't "see" what's going on with the battery. I believe in some cases damage can actually be caused to it. Some manufacturers have very specific instructions in their manuals and you would be well advised to have a read and follow their advice - Electronic units are disproportionately expensive! Oh, and I'd only use a Smart charger now a days. The old style transformer type have a far too coarsely regulated output and can't protect against mains spikes etc so is only to be used if you "bench" charge with the vehicle leads completely isolated from the battery. Jump starting? a whole other "can of worms" probably best discussed another day. Suffice to say, DON'T unless you know exactly what you are doing.
 
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.... put a spanner on the crankshaft nut and see if you can turn the engine over. Or stick the vehicle in top gear and see if the crank moves when you move the vehicle - even 6" or so would be far enough as you only need to see a small movement.

Personally I'd do that before anything else. That will tell you if the rings have rusted in the bores or if it's genrally just 'gummed up'. If you can get the crank to turn a full revolution with a spanner on the TVD bolt, that will help to free things up and make life easier for the battery, starter motor, etc.

If you have a voltmeter or even one of those cheap voltage readout things that push into the cigarette lighter socket, that will give an idea of voltage drop when you try cranking the engine on the starter motor. If the voltage reading drops like a stone when you turn the key, you know the battery is toast. I've just bought one of those pocket car-starting batteries to get one of my other cars started after it had been standing for a while. Truly amazing - it worked first turn of the key. A bona fide Get Out of Jail Card!

Btw @mikrussell - welcome to the Forum! :)
 
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Also, not mentioned yet:

How much fuel is in the tank? If it's a diesel, be careful about condensation, standing for so long will inevitably cause water to condensate out of the fuel, collect on the sides of the tank and end up in the bottom of the tank to be in line for being sucked up by your pick up pipe.
On cars I have come across that have stood for any significant amount of time, I am wary about the possibilities of condensation, it's a killer. Once that water gets into your oil or diesel filters it won't be easy to shift it, better to stick a couple of new filters in to start with. At least you'll know they can't give you any unexpected problems. Look out for a seized clutch too, if it is seized, press down the pedal, pin it down with a piece of wood from your seat and leave it a couple of days, they normally free themselves. Don't forget to release the handbrake and 'work' the cables to make sure the back wheels are not dragging.
Keep us posted and good luck.
George
 
I've just bought one of those pocket car-starting batteries to get one of my other cars started after it had been standing for a while. Truly amazing - it worked first turn of the key. A bona fide Get Out of Jail Card!

I've been thinking of taking the plunge with one of these for at least a year but haven't got round to it yet. Mostly because I find the idea behind these, relatively new, Super capacitor devices interesting. Just can't make my mind up whether to go for one. You seem very pleased with your more conventional battery powered one so would you mind sharing with us which one you bought?
 
I bought one on Amazon. The exact one I bought dosn't appear to be listed any longer:

Arteck 800A Peak Portable Car Jump Starter (Up to 6.0L Gas or 4.0L Diesel Engine) QDSP Auto 12V Battery Pack Booster and QC3.0 External Battery Charge

However, it was a real punt in the dark based on reading a few reviews. There are several similar ones listed on Amazon. This one spun over a 2.0 PD TDi that had an almost completely flat battery without any hesitation at all so an 800A rating is plenty. I just clipped the thing onto the terminals with the little leads it came with, then turned the key. The engine spun into life without any hesitation at all. The battery unit is tiny. I can post a photo or two if you want. As much as anything, I bought one because I thought it could get me (or any other member of the family) out of a tight corner if we get caught out by a knackered battery over the winter. It could easily be kept in most glove boxes.

As for the fuel business: The fuel filter is fairly easy to get at on the Multi, so a good solution on that front would be to remove the filter, empty out the old fuel and refill it with neat Liqui Moly Diesel Purge. Diesel engines will run quite happily on it (so they should - it's like feeding them a single malt) and it will give the injectors a full-on enema :D . It also helps to get rid of any condensation, and lubricates the injectors and bores.
 
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I bought one on Amazon. The exact one I bought dosn't appear to be listed any longer:

Arteck 800A Peak Portable Car Jump Starter (Up to 6.0L Gas or 4.0L Diesel Engine) QDSP Auto 12V Battery Pack Booster and QC3.0 External Battery Charge

However, it was a real punt in the dark based on reading a few reviews. There are several similar ones listed on Amazon. This one spun over a 2.0 PD TDi that had an almost completely flat battery without any hesitation at all so an 800A rating is plenty. I just clipped the thing onto the terminals with the little leads it came with, then turned the key. The engine spun into life without any hesitation at all. The battery unit is tiny. I can post a photo or two if you want. As much as anything, I bought one because I thought it could get me (or any other member of the family) out of a tight corner if we get caught out by a knackered battery over the winter. It could easily be kept in most glove boxes.

As for the fuel business: The fuel filter is fairly easy to get at on the Multi, so a good solution on that front would be to remove the filter, empty out the old fuel and refill it with neat Liqui Moly Diesel Purge. Diesel engines will run quite happily on it (so they should - it's like feeding them a single malt) and it will give the injectors a full-on enema :D . It also helps to get rid of any condensation, and lubricates the injectors and bores.

I've heard good things from the noco units apart from the smallest sized one not having quite enough grunt for larger engines
 
The noco ones are pretty expensive compared to what I paid for mine. For the amount of use it’ll get, a noco probably doesn’t make sense for me. It’s strange though - the choice of these things listed on Amazon now compared to last November(?) when I bought mine seems vastly reduced. It was literally teeming with units around the £50-mark. Now there aren’t many at all?
 
So I went and bought a brand new battery. 640CCA. The car now turns over slowly for about a second then stops. It sounds like its struggling. I think something is seized so i'll try taking off the aux belt off and turning it by hand.
 
I bought one on Amazon. The exact one I bought dosn't appear to be listed any longer:

Arteck 800A Peak Portable Car Jump Starter (Up to 6.0L Gas or 4.0L Diesel Engine) QDSP Auto 12V Battery Pack Booster and QC3.0 External Battery Charge

However, it was a real punt in the dark based on reading a few reviews.

I think I'm the opposite, I've read so many reviews I'm getting punch drunk with it all! However I keep coming back to this, relatively new, Supercapacitor technology. Here's a video showing one being sold in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7RMskdIWBE They all seem to work exactly the same way though. The one that interests me over here is a Sealey branded unit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQhSRa_WIM

It took me a while to get my head round how they work but it's actually a simple enough basic idea. Most of them seem to have 5 big fat supercapacitors with some smart electronics inside the box. The electronics let it choose whether to connect the capacitors in parallel or series. I couldn't understand at first how it could be fully charged up to 14 volts from a source with much less potential - say 5 volts. However it's pretty easy to understand - although I couldn't explain the niceties of the fine tuning the electronics apply. When charging up the capacitors (each of which, by deduction, must require around 2.5 volts or so to be fully charged?) are connected in parallel to the vehicle's battery. So as long as there is around 3 or 4 volts in the vehicle battery - the Sealey seems to want 5 volts - to give a reasonable potential difference the capacitor will charge to it's maximum potential of, and I'm guessing here, around 2.5 volts. Then, when you press the "ready" button, the electronics connect the capacitors in series so you get 5 times 2.5 volts - or whatever the capacitors actually charge to (it shows 14 volts on the control panel) - available at the croc clips on the battery. Being capacitors it won't sustain this for long but obviously does so for long enough to crank the engine over for a few seconds and as long as there is nothing wrong with the engine apart from it's flat battery, it'll start. It's are not going to give you extended cranking, but then neither is one of those small lithium power packs. However the supercaps, being of very low internal resistance, let the current be delivered very efficiently so it can really get some torque going on the starter. The big advantage the supercaps give you is that you can re-energize the caps again within a minute or so and have another try. Even if the "flat" battery runs down to such an extent that it can no longer energize the supercaps you can quickly charge it up on another vehicle or by one of the other means they show. I just feel this is so much more versatile than one of the more popular lithium ion battery powered mini packs which once depleted is going to need possibly hours to recharge.

Of course for serious cranking power you are never going to beat a nice big 12 volt slave battery but you're never going to get one of those in your glove box are you?
 
Hi everyone! I cut the aux belt off and she started right up! Most of the pulleys i could get to span no problem. I suspect i'm dealing with a seized alternator. Looks like a nightmare of a job on the car! Got my work cut out for me on this one.
 
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