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Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Arch inspiration?
Arch inspiration?
General Mid engined V6 cinq(updated 7/5/07)
- Thread starter Alfacento
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General Mid engined V6 cinq(updated 7/5/07)
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
thanks guys, enthusiast much appreciated as I get non of it at work!
Have written 2 lengthy relys now and both times they failed to send so this time its gonn abe short n sweet!
Small is beautiful. The world is a small place. Invention is cool. Adrenaline is the best drug. I'm a bit pissed.
:idea: Pub!
thanks guys, enthusiast much appreciated as I get non of it at work!
Have written 2 lengthy relys now and both times they failed to send so this time its gonn abe short n sweet!
Small is beautiful. The world is a small place. Invention is cool. Adrenaline is the best drug. I'm a bit pissed.
:idea: Pub!
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Looks a good project although one teensy wee word of caution.
When the wheelbase and track are about the same, the thing will spin like a top. There was once a Fiat 500 bodies Super saloon ( a class of racing from the 70s) It came over the crest at a wet Knockhill meeting and spun all the way to the next corner. The driver was very dizzy.
Cheers
D
Looks a good project although one teensy wee word of caution.
When the wheelbase and track are about the same, the thing will spin like a top. There was once a Fiat 500 bodies Super saloon ( a class of racing from the 70s) It came over the crest at a wet Knockhill meeting and spun all the way to the next corner. The driver was very dizzy.
Cheers
D
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Stratos: wheelbase 2179.3 mm, front track 1430 mm, rear track 1460.5 mm.
Now, it's for this reason i want to try and keep the track more or less as it is. Nevertheless, the limits at which something like a Stratos will spin are very high. I think Alfacento is using track similar to the Alfa 155 where i think most of the bits come from, so it'll actually have a slight advantage in that respect over Strat replicas as the Cinq has a slightly longer wheelbase.
Stratos: wheelbase 2179.3 mm, front track 1430 mm, rear track 1460.5 mm.
Now, it's for this reason i want to try and keep the track more or less as it is. Nevertheless, the limits at which something like a Stratos will spin are very high. I think Alfacento is using track similar to the Alfa 155 where i think most of the bits come from, so it'll actually have a slight advantage in that respect over Strat replicas as the Cinq has a slightly longer wheelbase.
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Just a point of interest -Anyone know what the power outputs would be on the engine in stock form? (ie before fitting & tuning in this one?)
Just a point of interest -Anyone know what the power outputs would be on the engine in stock form? (ie before fitting & tuning in this one?)
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Drivetrain Engine 60º V 6 Engine Location Front , transversely mounted Displacement 2.959 liter / 180.6 cu in Valvetrain 4 valves / cylinder, DOHC Fuel feed Bosch Motronic M3.7.1 Fuel injection Aspiration Naturally Aspirated Gearbox 6 speed Manual Drive Front wheel drive Performance figures Power 220 bhp / 164 KW @ 6300 rpm Torque 270 Nm / 199 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm BHP/Liter74 bhp / liter Power to weight ratio 0.16 bhp / kg Top Speed 240 km/h / 149 mph 0-60 mph Acceleration 6.6 s
Jordan
Smiler121 said:
Drivetrain Engine 60º V 6 Engine Location Front , transversely mounted Displacement 2.959 liter / 180.6 cu in Valvetrain 4 valves / cylinder, DOHC Fuel feed Bosch Motronic M3.7.1 Fuel injection Aspiration Naturally Aspirated Gearbox 6 speed Manual Drive Front wheel drive Performance figures Power 220 bhp / 164 KW @ 6300 rpm Torque 270 Nm / 199 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm BHP/Liter74 bhp / liter Power to weight ratio 0.16 bhp / kg Top Speed 240 km/h / 149 mph 0-60 mph Acceleration 6.6 s
Jordan
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
In a Cinq? That's going to hurt!!!
:slayer:
A&R Jordan said:
In a Cinq? That's going to hurt!!!
:slayer:
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Which Alfa did the engine come from?
Which Alfa did the engine come from?
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Too slow! Needs supercharging or taking out to 4 litres!
Too slow! Needs supercharging or taking out to 4 litres!
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Thats in the alfa though, all that extra weight over teh front end, and now all it has to lift is the driver and light front end, acceleration times will be quiker and so will top end. (If anyones stupid enuf to do that speed in a cinq! )
Jordan
fingers99 said:Too slow! Needs supercharging or taking out to 4 litres!
Thats in the alfa though, all that extra weight over teh front end, and now all it has to lift is the driver and light front end, acceleration times will be quiker and so will top end. (If anyones stupid enuf to do that speed in a cinq! )
Jordan
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
If he's using the brakes I think he's using, with that cage and decent harnesses he should be pretty much immortal! Doubt if he'll see any gains on top end (although raising the gearing is a possibility), but it should certainly do sub 6 second 0-60.
If he's using the brakes I think he's using, with that cage and decent harnesses he should be pretty much immortal! Doubt if he'll see any gains on top end (although raising the gearing is a possibility), but it should certainly do sub 6 second 0-60.
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
It looks like the older 12valve engine from an Alfa 164.
So between 180bhp & 200bhp, depending on which version.
(which is still a lot in a Cinq!)
If it is you need to be VERY careful with the cambelt, there is very little of the cambelt in contact with the rear cam pulley and they jump very easily.
Don't think so.A&R Jordan said:
It looks like the older 12valve engine from an Alfa 164.
So between 180bhp & 200bhp, depending on which version.
(which is still a lot in a Cinq!)
If it is you need to be VERY careful with the cambelt, there is very little of the cambelt in contact with the rear cam pulley and they jump very easily.
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Top end ain't really that important, if it is then wheels are the issue, too small and they can only reach a theoretical top speed so 15's min maybe 17's to see 130+ are needed.
Liam
Top end ain't really that important, if it is then wheels are the issue, too small and they can only reach a theoretical top speed so 15's min maybe 17's to see 130+ are needed.
Liam
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
yeschaos said:You mean 6R4
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
Whoever spotted that its a 12v wins the star prize, er, not sure what that is yet.
In guessing what car the engine came from keep in mind my super tight budget - where would you shop if you wanted a 3.0L V6 to put in a little car?? Any of the early 90's BIG luxury saloons - in my case an Alfa 164. Cars at this end of the market seem to suffer more extreme depreciation than any other, esp. in this country, I guess the rich people who buy them new in the first place upgrade to newer models, whilst people in the market for an older car tend to want smaller, cheaper to run vehicles. Hence you can pick up cars like 164 V6's for a couple of hundred quid in GWO.
I looked around at various big V6 engined FWD cars in breakers yards, and chose the 164 because it has a big square subframe, bolted to the underside of the car by its four corners. The front wishbones, anti-roll bar, steering rack, engine & box, basically ALL the bits I needed for the back of the cinq (chosen for its small lightweight, galvanised and cheap shell above all else!) are mounted on this subframe. I saw this as a way to save some extra work - just make my cage so it connected to the 4 subframe mounting points and hey presto! Back end sorted!
Keeping the driveshafts and wishbones the same as they are in the 164 meant having a track width far wider than a cinquecento. I see this as a big advantage - the wider the track the less lateral weight transfer for a given cornering force = you can corner harder before losing grip.
Yes the track/wheelbase ratio will tend to make it easier to spin, but thats half the idea, track days are all about having fun and learning to control a car on the limit, you could drive round in mondeo or the like which would no doubt be very safe and you might even set a reasonable lap time, if you can manage to stay awake for a complete lap!
Standard 164 12v figures: 192Bhp @5600rpm, 191 lb/ft @4400 rpm.
(UK spec) 1510kg kurb weight
0-60 7.5seconds
140mph top speed
Predicted Project cinq figures:
200Bhp (free flowing exhaust, mild porting)
sub 850kg (I've weighed all the main parts)
therfore 235 bhp/tonne power/weight ratio
sub 5 seconds 0-60
top speed - who cares!!
Oh and sub 8 minutes round the Nurburgring when I've learnt to drive it!:slayer:
Whoever spotted that its a 12v wins the star prize, er, not sure what that is yet.
In guessing what car the engine came from keep in mind my super tight budget - where would you shop if you wanted a 3.0L V6 to put in a little car?? Any of the early 90's BIG luxury saloons - in my case an Alfa 164. Cars at this end of the market seem to suffer more extreme depreciation than any other, esp. in this country, I guess the rich people who buy them new in the first place upgrade to newer models, whilst people in the market for an older car tend to want smaller, cheaper to run vehicles. Hence you can pick up cars like 164 V6's for a couple of hundred quid in GWO.
I looked around at various big V6 engined FWD cars in breakers yards, and chose the 164 because it has a big square subframe, bolted to the underside of the car by its four corners. The front wishbones, anti-roll bar, steering rack, engine & box, basically ALL the bits I needed for the back of the cinq (chosen for its small lightweight, galvanised and cheap shell above all else!) are mounted on this subframe. I saw this as a way to save some extra work - just make my cage so it connected to the 4 subframe mounting points and hey presto! Back end sorted!
Keeping the driveshafts and wishbones the same as they are in the 164 meant having a track width far wider than a cinquecento. I see this as a big advantage - the wider the track the less lateral weight transfer for a given cornering force = you can corner harder before losing grip.
Yes the track/wheelbase ratio will tend to make it easier to spin, but thats half the idea, track days are all about having fun and learning to control a car on the limit, you could drive round in mondeo or the like which would no doubt be very safe and you might even set a reasonable lap time, if you can manage to stay awake for a complete lap!
Standard 164 12v figures: 192Bhp @5600rpm, 191 lb/ft @4400 rpm.
(UK spec) 1510kg kurb weight
0-60 7.5seconds
140mph top speed
Predicted Project cinq figures:
200Bhp (free flowing exhaust, mild porting)
sub 850kg (I've weighed all the main parts)
therfore 235 bhp/tonne power/weight ratio
sub 5 seconds 0-60
top speed - who cares!!
Oh and sub 8 minutes round the Nurburgring when I've learnt to drive it!:slayer:
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
This thing is gonna be a beast, can't wait to see it finished and blasting round a track. Wish i had the skills to pull something like this off, think i should probably learn elsewhere before trying anything like this.. Keep us updated with your progress and remember to take as many pics as possible/as many as you can be arsed to take..
This thing is gonna be a beast, can't wait to see it finished and blasting round a track. Wish i had the skills to pull something like this off, think i should probably learn elsewhere before trying anything like this.. Keep us updated with your progress and remember to take as many pics as possible/as many as you can be arsed to take..
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
That's almost 4 times the power, It's gonna be a monster!
Loads of respect to ya for actually doing it.
I wondered about a bike engined cinq.
Hmmm....where's my tape measure!
200bhp and nearly the same in torqueAlfacento said:
That's almost 4 times the power, It's gonna be a monster!
Loads of respect to ya for actually doing it.
I wondered about a bike engined cinq.
Hmmm....where's my tape measure!
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
A decent sized bike engined cinq would probably be a formidable machine! With something like a ZX12R, latest R1 or a Hayabusa lump you'd have 180Bhp and total weight would be about 600-650kg, possibly a bit less with a bit of a diet.
Might be tricky fitting it in, a bike engine is pretty small (R1 measures about 500mm front to back), but you would probably want to sit the diff directly behind it and chain drive onto it (assuming a mid engined layout), so engine might be forced to sit quite far forward - possibly past the B pillar. Theres always a way though
A decent sized bike engined cinq would probably be a formidable machine! With something like a ZX12R, latest R1 or a Hayabusa lump you'd have 180Bhp and total weight would be about 600-650kg, possibly a bit less with a bit of a diet.
Might be tricky fitting it in, a bike engine is pretty small (R1 measures about 500mm front to back), but you would probably want to sit the diff directly behind it and chain drive onto it (assuming a mid engined layout), so engine might be forced to sit quite far forward - possibly past the B pillar. Theres always a way though
Re: Mid engined V6 cinq
How about a twin engine Cinq with a bike engine at each end!
How about a twin engine Cinq with a bike engine at each end!
