Panda 2012+ MES Diagnosis Help

[Adam1984]

Hello,

So I have had for a long time now, really poor and sluggish acceleration on my 2015 Fiat Panda (Pop 1.2)

Over the last few weeks evert day my MPG average is about 36. Which I hear is very low.

I am a MES user, but haven't got any ideas of where to start looking, is anyone able to help if possible please.

I don't have any EML lights or nothing, so maybe it's hard to diagnose. How can I test all sensors and what to look for in like oxygen sensors?

Thanks

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Hello,

So I have had for a long time now, really poor and sluggish acceleration on my 2015 Fiat Panda (Pop 1.2)

Over the last few weeks evert day my MPG average is about 36. Which I hear is very low.

I am a MES user, but haven't got any ideas of where to start looking, is anyone able to help if possible please.

I don't have any EML lights or nothing, so maybe it's hard to diagnose. How can I test all sensors and what to look for in like oxygen sensors?

Thanks

I’ll reply here, but also to your various other posts that are, in effect, all related.

The whole engine management system and its related sensors and warning lights is there, primarily, to make engines run well enough to meet the emissions laws. If something is sufficiently wrong that the car might by emitting too much pollution, it will show the engine warning light (EML).

Before the EML shows, there are some things that generate fault codes as an early warning - for example in a diesel, that one glow plug has failed. Until more than one fails, the car will still run fine. (I know you car isn’t diesel but I can’t think of a similar ‘keep an eye and fix when you can’ type message)

But there are several potential issues that can cause poor power that are not caused by the emissions control systems, and so will not show an error, and cannot be detected by tools like MES.

Simple mechanical problems that cause too much friction (eg low gearbox oil level) for example will not show any codes.

And we know that your starter motor is not working as it should - that could be adding mechanical ‘drag’, especially if the mechanism that disengages it is stuck. No amount of Mes data will diagnose that one.

If any sensors (eg oxygen, air flow etc) are faulty, you will see the EML or a very obvious ‘stored code’ in MES. You’re not. So you need to look to the things it’s not able to tell you about. Physical issues.

 

[Mike1alike]

36 mpg is not very low.

 

[The Panda Nut]

36 mpg is not very low.

Our two cars driven without much attention return 44+mpg. 36 is more into TA territory. The 1.2 get sluggish if the VVT sensor sticks. cleaning this regularly makes a big difference to the performance, It does most of its work at high rpm but works over the entire rev range if its not sticky. Its easy to clean. Throttle body and inlet manifold / MAP sensor get fouled too quickly for my liking and this also affects it badly. Again easy to fix, ANYONE can do these jobs with few tools. The VVT requires oil flow to its actuator and it has a very fine filter built in. The Italian service oft referred to, is a real thing and and for the VVT it works, forcing the actuator to run at full pressure and open to its maximum really helps. Plodding about will destroy the cars perfomance as it doesnt open and starts to stick. The crankcase ventilation / breather system on the 1.2 is crude and it sucks oil vapout and water condensation from the top of the engine back into the inlet airflow. This is fine and dandy unless the engine is a bit below spec, when oil vapour literally pools in the inlet manifold and covers the MAP which then causes bad running. The engines clearly vary a lot from one to another in terms of how much oil mist gets pulled out and deposited. I have one that is very clean indeed, one thtas OK and one that needs watching. Having catch cans fitted water is collected and I empty it out so the inlet stays clean. Without a catch can the throttle body gets very dirty and any sticking, however small upsets the performace. A can of carburettor cleaner used on the throttle body and MAP sensor to keep them spotless works wonders. I now take the throttle body and MAP off each year and clean them thoroughly inside and out, while its off, I mop the inlet manifold clean, then take the MAP out and spray clean that. After the oil change clean the VVT actuator and the difference is really apparent. Our 1.2s all run sweetly and are as perky as you would hope for from a small engine. If the VVT is sluggish is amazing how badly they are affected. The power and torque curves are such that you must rev the engines quite hard to get at the power and 3600rpm or more is needed. Give it some welly at least once a week. The VVT really starts its full stuff at 4400rpm and when clean you can feel it do its full shift if its working. I'd like to bet that 98% of VVT 1.2s are not working as well as they should. Very few people drive over 4400rpm much in normal use. With this engine this leads to a slow decline ending in them feeling really rather poor. Its not irreversible and its only an hour or so to clean all the things I have suggested. With the VVT using lower quality oil just adds to the malaise. SO decent oil and annual changes if you want the best from the engine. My youngest daughter is rather renown for "driving" her car.... The use of higher revs and its affect can be very clearly seen compared to Mrs Panda Nuts car which can become slow as 2500rpm is stratospheric for her. Too many years of having a diesel car. On a long run, even doing 70mph when permitted the our 2014 car does over 60mpg without trying.

 

[Mike1alike]

Post here please what module do you connect to, when you connect to MES (plus all the details, car type and what there is). I don't know why you can't read the voltage of both oxygen sensors, maybe it's the MES version or who knows. I'll try to simulate connect on my MES to the same module and see what there is.

 

[Mike1alike]

Our two cars driven without much attention return 44+ 36 is more into TA territory. T

Is that city driving or...?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Is that city driving or...?

It would be a pretty big city to cover 250,000 miles in it! Its all types of driving from Mrs PN just going 5 miles each way to the shops to 500 mile trips in a day averaging 70mph. The cars are driven by different people so get different use, but I drive them all to make sure they are all as they should be and to give them the Italian service every now and again. Includes carying full loads, piles of city use for one car and commuting 40 miles each way daily on another. Its the higher milage car that is the dirtier one but that may just be because she thrashes it quite hard. Its also driven at night when its colder and in winter it has a notable effect on what the catch can collects.

I was a terrible speeder for many years covering very high miles (60 to 120 K miles when I was working) until the last few years but still dont hang about, advanced driver training says keep the speed up where you can. For donkeys years I would calculate journey times with an average of 60mph. Thats no longer remotely possible or necessary apart from being too old for it.
The cars with catch cans dump any mayo in the catch can and about 200cc of water for each 300 miles of use. The oil caps have none and I really mean none, not even a hint. I look at it this way, if you asked me to tip 200cc of water into my oil once a week, I would decline the suggestion and Im pretty sure removing it is good.

 

[Adam1984]

Our two cars driven without much attention return 44+mpg. 36 is more into TA territory. The 1.2 get sluggish if the VVT sensor sticks. cleaning this regularly makes a big difference to the performance, It does most of its work at high rpm but works over the entire rev range if its not sticky. Its easy to clean. Throttle body and inlet manifold / MAP sensor get fouled too quickly for my liking and this also affects it badly. Again easy to fix, ANYONE can do these jobs with few tools. The VVT requires oil flow to its actuator and it has a very fine filter built in. The Italian service oft referred to, is a real thing and and for the VVT it works, forcing the actuator to run at full pressure and open to its maximum really helps. Plodding about will destroy the cars perfomance as it doesnt open and starts to stick. The crankcase ventilation / breather system on the 1.2 is crude and it sucks oil vapout and water condensation from the top of the engine back into the inlet airflow. This is fine and dandy unless the engine is a bit below spec, when oil vapour literally pools in the inlet manifold and covers the MAP which then causes bad running. The engines clearly vary a lot from one to another in terms of how much oil mist gets pulled out and deposited. I have one that is very clean indeed, one thtas OK and one that needs watching. Having catch cans fitted water is collected and I empty it out so the inlet stays clean. Without a catch can the throttle body gets very dirty and any sticking, however small upsets the performace. A can of carburettor cleaner used on the throttle body and MAP sensor to keep them spotless works wonders. I now take the throttle body and MAP off each year and clean them thoroughly inside and out, while its off, I mop the inlet manifold clean, then take the MAP out and spray clean that. After the oil change clean the VVT actuator and the difference is really apparent. Our 1.2s all run sweetly and are as perky as you would hope for from a small engine. If the VVT is sluggish is amazing how badly they are affected. The power and torque curves are such that you must rev the engines quite hard to get at the power and 3600rpm or more is needed. Give it some welly at least once a week. The VVT really starts its full stuff at 4400rpm and when clean you can feel it do its full shift if its working. I'd like to bet that 98% of VVT 1.2s are not working as well as they should. Very few people drive over 4400rpm much in normal use. With this engine this leads to a slow decline ending in them feeling really rather poor. Its not irreversible and its only an hour or so to clean all the things I have suggested. With the VVT using lower quality oil just adds to the malaise. SO decent oil and annual changes if you want the best from the engine. My youngest daughter is rather renown for "driving" her car.... The use of higher revs and its affect can be very clearly seen compared to Mrs Panda Nuts car which can become slow as 2500rpm is stratospheric for her. Too many years of having a diesel car. On a long run, even doing 70mph when permitted the our 2014 car does over 60mpg without trying.

Hello,
I changed the MAP sensor about a month ago, and I am getting a new VVT solenoid done this weekend along with a new alternator and drive belt.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hello,
I changed the MAP sensor about a month ago, and I am getting a new VVT solenoid done this weekend along with a new alternator and drive belt.

New VVT not a good idea. Clean the old one. A tight VVT will need miles to run in. VVT is just a push fit into the cam cover. Held in by 1 screw. They really hold on to a lot of muck inside the body. Its inevitable as the oil slows to pass the filter mesh. I was amazed by how much muck came out. Spray clean until no more dirt is remove then bath in good quality oil before refitting. The Panda engine is an old design. It is simple to work on cam shaft pulley aside but I feel it suffers from issues because of the basically old design, but nothing that service on time cant cope with. You should not need to be adding parts in quantity. Components are designd to last a long time and older sometimes means better as things move easier when run in. There are enough members saying the engines will go well over 100,000 miles and still be working well and quite a number saying 200 to 250,000 miles is not unusual. Bear in mind the materials they are made of are now so good that with the oil changed some engines are almost as good as new at 200K miles. There was a post on here I clearly remember wher a Panda 100 had done 205,000 miles with teh same owner from new and had almost no significant parts replaced. Ive done so many miles now driving so many cars, I know that a decent 1.6 diesel for example will only be run in at 60K few people keep a new car that long. My Bravo was px'd at 108K because it needed a new gearbox. The engine was running the best ever. Even better than new in every department. In fact the whole car apart from that gearbox was nearly as good as new. I should have done the repair. Do use MES to view what things look like but problems are unlikely and most of the time the values are meaningless. SPend some time researching what values should be before looking in MES I think or its just confusing.Look for sets of values veing even but dont expect perfection even imbalances etween injection shots of fuel may cause fluctuations. Unless the VVT is broken I would strongly suggest leave it alone. There are so many little variables with multiple components being involved and fuels varies, as does thinsg like air pressure. What you want is smooth effective power as much as a Panda has in its limited scope. The VVT operating is definitely a significant factor in these car being smooth but changing it is just £45 down the drain and its going to be tight. It needs to be worked to get it running well. Third gear 70mph for 20 seconds then drive a bit then do it again. I think after 20 or 30 repeats there was a change from its former state. If the car is not revved oil pressure in the unit is minimal and sediment in the oil deposits inside the thing slowing it. All engines have unevenness in tickover and its normal. Often taking things apart does not fix things and may make them less good. You should be quite OK with the pandas get up and go but if you want it to go fast you have to work it hard, and you need high revs on the engine to be in the power band. They are not designed for high performance. Pandas are a compromise they are good at everything but due to price have limitations. If you want a pocket rocket go try a Panda 100HP. Its a masterpiece and I think the 1.4 engine in that is the best 4 pot engine ever made. If you do fit a new VVT make sure you clean it abd really bath in clean oil before fitting. It may feel better but will need maintenance to continue at its best. There has been lots said on oil choice. Ive settled on Quantum which stops any start up rattle and Pugget Auld Jock uses Fuchs and says he rates it. We now know its the same oil as the Quantum brand. I find it odd that a basic engine like the Panda seems to be sensitive to the oil its given but I find the Qunatum C3 Platinum Premium 5/40 works best so far. Its VW oil but is apporved for the Panda oil requirements. If you have changed the coils you may be able to sell a working second hand coil pack as there seem to be a few on eBay. Keep the alternator bearings lubricated periodically, it will hel especially in winter when it can easily be affected by floods and deep puddles. A new MAP sensor fitted in a dirty manifold may well need attention earlier, hence the catch cans which I an convinced are a rela plus. I posted photos of how I installed ours a few years back bit searching will show. There is a guide on the thin breather pipe change, showing the old one in poor condition. Fiat say change the plugs every 2 years. I find that Fiat branded plugs may work at that point but annual change always feels like an improvement. Mad as I have a stimmer which is 54 years old and its only just had its first plug change, and the old one still worked. That engine has really done a lot of work and runs at 13000rpm so it proves hard worked components have a good life span. Have realistic expectations of ayour low powered small engine and it will become obvious when its not right. If the carw fires up easily, ticks over steadily on the rev counter and does upwards of 43mpg driven older man steady and you have a good engine. If you look back at my posts I recommended a book "Small Fiats" by Phil somebody. It would be a really good place to see the hjistory and develpment of the engine and also some good basics on how people tuned them up in the past. Its all relevant still and will confirm a lot of things people have suggested and support why some stuff works better than others. It starts with theTopolino and goes up to date with 2012+ Panda and 500s taking in all the other small car and the very much interlinked developments over coming up 100 years. If I can lnik that post I will. I love that book.

The old set on here gew up when you could change teh stuff that fine tunes and engine, It was a two edged sword though because while you could fettle, younalso HAD to fettle as timing etc could and did slip, then plugs and points burned out and carburettors would require resetting or you could end up with burned valves etc. With EU control these things are fixed so scope to improve on standard has been more or less removed. Reliability is vastly better but you are stuck with bog standard unless you get into reprogramming engine chip sets and can do fuel mapping. A facinating area but needing expensive equipment and training. With a standard car you cant fiddle to good effect, and trying will go through cash like nothing else. What you need is another to try anotehr Panda or two to judeg your against.. I would recommend taking teh throttle body off and inspecting the inlet manifold and cleaning any oil build up out as this seems to make tnings better, If you do this though you can drop bolts and toosl down te back of the engine so pack the area with rags. My T25 torx bit sits on Daffos stater motor! If someone changes that in the future they will get a nice suprise. If you want to make the car better treat the rear axle keep teh underside clean and gve the paint a clay blocking and some Auto glym gold ceramic polish, and kee those duck bills clear. If your really keen fettle the metal coolant pipe from the water pump and keep that rust free. MY advice on top of this is save your money like mad for the inevitable day when you have to change the car for something newer or better.