Technical LOTS of fuel in oil pan...!!!

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Technical LOTS of fuel in oil pan...!!!

I believe from previous posts that George bought an unused 650 lump with all the ancillaries included I.e. Distributor, fuel pump, carb etc....?

My next step would be to swap the carb out for another, I assume you still have a 500 lump lying around somewhere? Although the carb throat is 2mm different between the 500 and 650 it will still run and allow you to at least eliminate the carb. The fuel pumps are the same, there is nothing particularly sophisticated about them.
 
This pump may well be supplying excess pressure. If the pumps are the same, he could try an old pump.

Yes anything to eliminate either the carb or the pump. The pump is as basic as it gets.

It is driven by a pushrod that runs to the camshaft, as the camshaft rotates the rod moves back and forth. It depresses a rocker that causes the diaphragm to depress, petrol flows into the pump bowl via gravity and once the rocker is no longer depressed, the spring causes the diaphragm to pump the fuel out into the carb. All it needs to work is a good diaphragm and a decent air tight seal.
 
I can't see how fuel can get into the sump via any other way other than the pump. The Haynes manual says petrol may flow out of a little hole in the spacer between the two layers of the diaphragm. The lower layer is to stop petrol getting down into the sump.
If you need to swap out either the carb and/or the pump give me a shout George as I have both spare
Damian
 
I have been following this subject with some interest. The chances of the pump suddenly oversupplying is, as the engine ran OK before the coil was changed, practically nil. A pump may start to UNDER supply due to a number of factors, but not oversupply. The amount a pump supplies can, to a greater or lesser degree, be adjusted by the number (i.e. total thickness) of gaskets between the pump and the spacer (or spacer and crank-case). This is the method recommended in the workshop manual as there is a set amount that the operating rod should stick out past the spacer.
The more likely cause of the problem is the needle-valve sticking open, possibly by a bit of grit/dirt/rust--how low did the fuel tank get? Is there a fuel filter in the system?, if so, when was it last cleaned/changed. From many years experience running a workshop (M/Benz x2), it is amazing how often a fault turns out to be something basic--check all the SIMPLE things first--static timing, spark at plug (in correct sequence!), clean plugs, condenser (the coil did fry itself) etc.
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just had another thought (from experience!)--when you take the top of the carb off, check that there is no fuel INSIDE the float. Even a tiny crack in the float will allow fuel to enter into it. Result?--the float will sink rather than float up and shut off the needle-valve. You will not be able to get the petrol out of the float--consign it to the bin. Fit a float from any 500/126 carb--as long as you set its height correctly, it will work.
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Hi, Just to eliminate the fuel pump once and for all I would by pass the mechanical pump, taking it out of circulation completely, and temporarily fit an electric pump, possibly with a switch to manually control fuel level, HOWEVER take care that there are NO electrical sparks possible near petrol!
 
Just a thought, do you park on a slope, front of car higher than the engine?

H A
 
Hi everyone and thank you so much for all your thoughtful points. As i have been having a rather frustrating 2-3 days with this and in a moment of madness I have decided to take the cowardly way out and splash out. This little thing has proven a bigger money pit than i imagined. I ordered a new fuel pump and a reconditioned 28mm carburettor to make use of my discount code from fiat500ricambi. Worse case scenario i sell them on at a later time. The pump diaphragms were fine as mentioned earlier but i did notice that the spring in the lower part of the pump was rather rusty so thought i may as well get it to eliminate the (unlikely) possibility that it was been oversupplying my carb with fuel.

the hobbler I have a feeling that the float may indeed have had some fuel in it! When i shook it a bit yesterday it did sound as if there was something in there. Not much and it didn't drip or anything but it did feel a bit a odd. I will recheck this tomorrow.

H A The car does tend to be parked in a slope as i have a ramp (will post photo in a minute). When i did this again tonight and went back a couple of hours later the floor was full of fuel yet again and the oil really runny so i have had a lot of contamination - more than could be justified by 3 failed attempts to start the car.


@the_hobbler I am intrigued in something you said - i may have done a massively stupid thing if i've got this wrong. You say spark in the right sequence... I was under the impression that both cylinders in these engines go up and down at the same time - ie the fire at the same time. My dizzy doesn't even have a rotor or plug wires going into it (it has a flat cap). How could i tell which is the correct order of firing? i may well have plugged the wires from the coil to the plugs incorrectly when i replaced the coil. If that's the case (and will feel rather embarrassed if this is the reason for not starting any more!)

Paolo66 - thanks very much for your kind offer! Had i seen your message a bit earlier on (before i ordered a new pump) i may well have taken you up on it as i'm off to colchester tomorrow most likely to see the inlaws! There has never been any fuel leaking from the pump or from the small hole in the plastic spacer between the 2 diaphragms.


I think i've got a couple of leads from your suggestions - i am most intrigued at relooking at the float tomorrow. Hopefully this has been the source of all problems. Can't understand why else the carb would get flooded on its own when the car is parked at an incline.
 
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George. It won't be the plug leads, you will have a wasted spark setup, where both HT leads will spark at the same time. The one on the compression should obviously ignite the fuel, the other cylinder will be on the exhaust and will as the name says be wasted.
 
I can't see how fuel can get into the sump via any other way other than the pump.
A failed diaphragm is the most common way for fuel to get into the sump, but a flooding carb will drain fuel into the manifold, which will enter the engine through any open inlet valves, and drain easily past the rings to the sump.
I have been following this subject with some interest. The chances of the pump suddenly oversupplying is, as the engine ran OK before the coil was changed, practically nil. A pump may start to UNDER supply due to a number of factors, but not oversupply.
Any pump will have a designed output pressure, determined by the spring under the diaphragm. I agree, it is unlikely to increase its supply pressure with age or use, but if initially supplying excess pressure, many float valves will cope for some time before succumbing to the pressure. As the engine had not apparently been run for long since 'new', this should be considered along with any other diagnosis.
The amount a pump supplies can, to a greater or lesser degree, be adjusted by the number (i.e. total thickness) of gaskets between the pump and the spacer (or spacer and crank-case). This is the method recommended in the workshop manual as there is a set amount that the operating rod should stick out past the spacer.
The number of gaskets does not really adjust the output pressure, as that is determined by the spring pushing the diaphragm. More gaskets can reduce the input 'suck' as the diaphragm moves less, which can lead to insufficient fuel supply if the tank is a long way from the carb. With the power of even the 650 motor, this should not be an issue.
The main purpose of adjusting the number of gaskets is to reduce the stroke of the lever, and so that of the diaphragm. This will flex the diaphragm less, giving it a longer life. Decreasing the gaskets, can compensate for a worn pushrod or cam lobe.
The more likely cause of the problem is the needle-valve sticking open, possibly by a bit of grit/dirt/rust
Absolutely, this was mentioned earlier, and still is the primary thought in my mind, or a porous float.

I have a feeling that the float may indeed have had some fuel in it! When i shook it a bit yesterday it did sound as if there was something in there. Not much and it didn't drip or anything but it did feel a bit a odd. I will recheck this tomorrow.
Any fuel in the float will change its level, and lead to flooding. Any doubt, replace it.


The car does tend to be parked in a slope as i have a ramp. When i did this again tonight and went back a couple of hours later the floor was full of fuel yet again and the oil really runny so i have had a lot of contamination - more than could be justified by 3 failed attempts to start the car.

The problem showing whilst parked on a slop eliminates the pump pressure as a problem, as once the diaphragm has let go completely, the engine is not running to retension it.
Gravity alone is allowing fuel to flow, through the pump to the carb. The float and needle valve are under almost no pressure, so either the float is porous, or the valve not sealing due to dirt.

Another thought. I understand that the ethanol content in current fuels can attack some float materials, and valve seats.
 
Well.... Hallelujah!! The culprit was finally found thanks to your recommendations. :) I removed the carb cover again and this time I actually pulled the pin that holds the float. Lo and behold the damn thing is FULL of fuel. It had two almost invisible hairline cracks and a pinhole in the jbweld like seam that runs in the middle! Submersed the whole thing in water and there were lots of bubbles forming. In my anger I squeezed the damn thing and lots of fuel popped out of it :devil:.

Now just got to wait a couple of days for the new carb to arrive and I should be good to go. that gives me time to replace the alternator and figure out a cause for my juddering reverse!!

Thanks very much everyone!!!

Quick (irrelevant) question. My car came with no paperwork as it was a barn find. Before I register it to the dvla I need to get some proof of age. I can do this with the VIN # but I've been told I need to get some kind of letter from the fiat club. Do you know if anyone in this forum provide this letter??
 
Thought as much George. Had it happen to me, thing stunk of fuel. Always handy to have a spare float
 
Phew--glad we got that one sorted! Also, glad to know that the few remaining grey cells that I still posses still work in unison occasionally! Where abouts in Ipswich are you--until October 2014 I lived in old Feolixstowe. It was my burgundy 500 (the 1 with the boot-lid propped open) in this years Ipswich to Felixstowe run. There are a few 500s in your area--1 at Brands Garage in Trimley-St-Mary, 1 being rebuilt by a young lad in Bridge Road, Felixstowe (just off Garrison Lane), a couple on Mersea Island, and of course Damian (Paolo66) in Thorrington. I am hoping to do another Ipswich/Felixstowe run, probably 2017--would be good if we can get all the 500s together.
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Yeah hobbler - your float suspicions were spot on. I live in a new(ish) estate called Ravenswood in Ipswich. As it happens i haven't seen any 500s in Ipswich other than that of a friend's from Nacton area who sold his last year after the Mersea Island classic car show. It would be awesome to do a run with lots of little 500s from East Anglia.

P.S. Mine also has its engine propped open at the moment but for the wrong reasons. I have got one of the supposedly rare 8 bolt 500f's. When i bought all the new panels i didn't realise that these ones share the engine lid with the 500 d's which is somewhat different. As a result mine never shuts properly either ;)
 
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