General lifting a panda 4x4

[R1NGA]

If the mountings are under pressure, will this prevent the lift you'd wanted? Will it lead to early failure of the mountings?
General advice when replacing lower arms or any suspension bushes/mountings, is to have the car sat on them before final tightening. This puts the flexible mountings in their normal 'at rest' position, so that they flex evenly form there. If not already done, might be an idea, with the car sat on its wheels, to slacken all the mountings and retighten, to allow any stressed rubbers to relax.

If you are carrying a lot of heavy stuff, might be worth weighing it to ensure not overloaded. Whilst the load may be less than carrying people, the position may need adjustment to even it out.

Good advice, I shall indeed check. The reference to not dropping down far enough was to do with getting the spring out of the way to be able to seat that spacers confidently, so won't affect the ability of the kit and mounting to do the job for which is was designed.

 

[R1NGA]

Seems to have settled now - definitely higher and gives that little bit of extra ground clearance. The 175's now look small, so will move to the Cross-sized 185's when tyres are ready for changing.

 

[oyumurtaci]

Your red mirror caps are awesome too by the way.

 

[crosspanda]

how is the car, happy with the lift kit?

 

[R1NGA]

how is the car, happy with the lift kit?

Absolutely. My car is now similar in height to how it was when I bought - it had definitely sagged due to usage and the additional 'kit' I carry ion the boot (nothing too drastic, just a spare wheel & jack, few tools, reflective jacket, snow shovel and a 4-line Flexifoil 2.5m Rage kite, obviously...).

Here's a picture of the car when I picked it up from the dealer. I'd say that the +15mm lift has compensated for the sag/weight in the rear and has restored the same height, but the front is indeed a little higher overall, whilst compensating for a little sag into the bargain, as the lift is nearer 10mm at the front over new, as opposed to the fitted +15mm of the kit.

Either way, these height differences on a softly sprung car like the Panda make almost negligible difference to the handling or longevity of the vehicle - way less change than the difference between driving solo or carrying 3 mates around, as I've mentioned before.

 

[R1NGA]

Compare and contrast to the undoubtedly unladen pictures of the Prometeo Mechanica car with its +15mm kit fitted. Maybe mine might look like this when it's empty and pre-sag etc;

 

[wavecult]

Now I don't own a Panda but lifting a car with independent suspension all around can change the suspension geometry and the camber (unless you get a kit like the one Calmini provides for the Vitara where the lift comes with longer wishbones).

Its already been mentioned that the change in angle of the driveshafts could affect how long they last and there's also been a mention of the suspension sagging... however, even when new, the added clearance provided to the lowest point in the undercarriage will generally not be as much as the lift claims to add (and when we're talking about 15mm... there's not much room to play with).

In my own personal view, the only reason to get a lift would be to fit larger diameter tyres (for a real/actual increase in clearance regardless of how compressed or extended the suspension would be at any point in time... and no impact on the suspension sagging).

For 15mm I'd try looking to see if larger diameter tyres would be a valid option before considering a lift.

Having said that, another great reason to get a proper lift kit would be to get added articulation - but for that you'd be looking at a full suspension system (longer shocks, springs, wishbones, and maybe some sway bar disconnects) and I'd guess that would probably be overkill.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Now I don't own a Panda but lifting a car with independent suspension all around can change the suspension geometry and the camber (unless you get a kit like the one Calmini provides for the Vitara where the lift comes with longer wishbones).

Its already been mentioned that the change in angle of the driveshafts could affect how long they last and there's also been a mention of the suspension sagging... however, even when new, the added clearance provided to the lowest point in the undercarriage will generally not be as much as the lift claims to add (and when we're talking about 15mm... there's not much room to play with).

In my own personal view, the only reason to get a lift would be to fit larger diameter tyres (for a real/actual increase in clearance regardless of how compressed or extended the suspension would be at any point in time... and no impact on the suspension sagging).

For 15mm I'd try looking to see if larger diameter tyres would be a valid option before considering a lift.

Having said that, another great reason to get a proper lift kit would be to get added articulation - but for that you'd be looking at a full suspension system (longer shocks, springs, wishbones, and maybe some sway bar disconnects) and I'd guess that would probably be overkill.

Agree with all that.

 

[varesecrazy]

Agree with all that.

agreed,

however - the OP R1NGA hasn't CHANGED the driving geometry..,

it's actually closer NOW than after he put miles on it..and Kit IN it..,

it's basically RESTORED the factory settings for CV angles

 

[portland_bill]

But was it designed to settle?

 

[R1NGA]

But was it designed to settle?

No, but all cars settle over time. My reason for fitting the lift kit was to maintain the original height after sag - it just looks plain wrong to have a Panda 4x4 running around with what looks like non-4x4 suspension. I don't do much offroading in the car, but there is a track I use sometimes to avoid a main road climb up a steep hill and if I'm not careful the underbody can kiss the ground. Since fitting the lift this no longer occurs at the same speed and point on the climb. So all good.

I've now done nearly 5,000 miles with the lift kit and there's no adverse wear on the tyres and at 22,500 I've still got 4-5mm of tread all round. In fact I am itching to fit the Nokian Weatherproof tyres that are sat in the garage, but can't bring myself to remove the perfectly serviceable CrossContacts just yet. Although once I get to below 4mm all round, they'll be off....

I can only add that with the Eibach adjustable camber bolts set to about 2.3deg -ve camber on the front, the 15mm spacers that came with the Prometeo lift kit and the lift itself, the car handles superbly and remains the most practical fun of all the cars we own right now. There's now enough front grip to bring a decent amount of lift-off oversteer into play on slimy roundabouts which is just so controllable and just what the car needed. Clearly each to their own, but I for one don't like the increasing levels of understeer built into modern cars which dulls the handling just when its about to become a little more interactive.

 

[oyumurtaci]

Those camber bolts are probably going to be at the top of my to do list once the warranty runs out on mine, if not second right after cruise control.

 

[R1NGA]

Those camber bolts are probably going to be at the top of my to do list once the warranty runs out on mine, if not second right after cruise control.

Personally I wouldn't fuss too much about warranty, as firstly any rejected claim for component failure would need to be directly related to presence of the mods (ie: an A/C failure couldn't be refused because you'd fitted camber bolts or Cruise Control) and secondly both these mods are easily reversible, should you absolutely have to have a clear conscience.

Certainly in the world of high power German brands, most major warranty claims these days are for engine or gearbox related issues and these can easily be attributed by the manufacturer to engine and gearbox remaps (the latter being the famed TCU remap that is becoming more popular), so in these cases people have to be very careful. But an extra degree of camber or Cruise Control that is purely electronic are VERY unlikely to upset anyone. Personally I'd take the risk and enjoy 3 or more lovely years of extra convenience and handling (I did) and get those fitted Sir!

 

[oyumurtaci]

After reading about your experiences in previous threads, one of the first things I did was sit down with the service manager of my local dealer and talk through what I could and couldn't do to the car to keep the warranty intact. Unfortunately, the wording for the warranty in Turkey means that while you're correct in the separation of faults from each other (i.e. a mechanical mod can't void the warranty on the electrics), the end result is that any mechanical modifications would void the whole powertrain and body warranties, and any electrical modifications would void all of the electrically operated functions regardless of if they were related. Sifting through all the legal parlance was a chore, but they've drawn a clear picture in that they'll avoid warranty repairs as much as possible, so I intend on getting as much as possible out of the warranty before it runs out. Come to think of it, there's an odd rattle coming from behind the instruments, might have that checked out.

 

[wavecult]

They always do... I bought my Sedici new although it's manufacture date was from a few years ago and during that time God knows how they stored it: there were several things that I sorted out myself to avoid the hassle like rotted rubber wiper blades and one clogged windshield wiper nozzle but what really annoyed me was that the badges had humidity inside them (also what looks to be some botches lf transparent glue)... Fiat insists that warranty doesn't cover "decorative" items (even though it was a problem identified before the vehicle left the dealer).

After months lf back and forth they agreed to give me a discount - so I'd only have to pay around USD200 (!!!) for the badges... - or if I sourced the badges myself they'd install it for free... but it took 3 months to get that far.

(in all fairness most automakers are like this)

 

[wavecult]

... but getting back to the camber bolts - that's definitely a mod to have if you're going to raise the suspension

 

[oyumurtaci]

... but getting back to the camber bolts - that's definitely a mod to have if you're going to raise the suspension

Even if you aren't planning on lifting, they'll help dial out the understeer designed into modern cars, and the Panda definitely has plenty of understeer fitted as standard.

 

[wavecult]

I'd never really considered that. It's a great point.

 

[oyumurtaci]

So I started writing something and it ended up being a tirade. I apologise for the rant in advance. The gist of it is that I'd live in the 1970s if I could.

It's one of my pet peeves regarding modern cars. Understeer is considered the "safer" option because rather than enacting legislation appropriate for the proper understanding and operation of a large mass of metal, driving tests in most countries are pretty much just an exercise in ensuring a person is not an immediate threat to public safety as opposed to being an actual evaluation of preparedness for driving. Thus, when something daft happens, the "learned instinct" which is entirely based on a lack of appreciation of the laws of physics is to turn the steering wheel and stomp on the brakes. Hence, modern car engineering accounts for this by designing understeer into the handling. Combined with the way ABS systems work, this ensures that even the most ham fisted dingleberry can exercise some degree of collision avoidance. This approach in and of itself is like an afterthought in that collision avoidance measures taken to balance out the event of a collision is less effective than collision prevention in the first place. The first step towards that would be proper driver education to better take advantage of the physical characteristics of motor vehicles. While we're at it, I also propose a sort of "pedestrian walking test" in that since as an advanced human society we insist on enforcing arbitrary rules like pedestrian priority rather than facing the simple fact that when a ton of metal impacts a soft fleshy person, the ton of metal will always win, people must also pass a pedestrian test in order to coexist in modern settlement wherein cars and people must coexist. That way at least people would also understand that an indicator light actually indicates the intent of the driver to turn in that direction as is not merely a blinking flashy bit that conveys meaning only to other motorists.

 

[portland_bill]

I'm with you all the way there.
Sadly, learning to drive is expensive, and no-one will pay to learn to drive, only to pass a test. Having been an advanced driver most of my driving life, and coaching others to pass their advanced test, on motorcycle, then car, from '84-'04, now as a driving instructor I demand a high standard. I tell them this at the start of training, and that with me it will take longer, and cost more, and many disappear. Those that stay, I am happy to share the roads with.

The modern driver aids work very well. It is amazing how a car equipped with skid control and dynamic control will sort out skids almost before they start. Having fun with a car where these aids can be turned off and on is a real eye opener. Having learnt in a MkII Cortina, back in the dark ages, vehicle handling was important. Sadly, the school cars these days do not have the option to turn off the driver aids, so can't frighten the pupils. Few are interested in the physics.

Long gone are the days when to drive meant being an enthusiast.

Perhaps this thread has lost its way, and should move to the 'Grumpy' thread.