Tuning Imola finally gets boost 1242 8v mpi turbo info thread

[Lecook]

Still on this.... just very 'slowly-slowly' currently looking into a different turbo as the alot of ahat ive read says they run out of puff at around 4.5k rpm... not something i want... other options include the gt17 from a saab 9-3 or 9-5 or the slightly larger td04 mitsubishi turbo that comes on the aero... this is looking like a good option as its a larger turbo.. more laggy below 2500rpm... which i think may be of benefit for 60-70mph crusing on motorways ect??? I.e not constantly being on boost at normal motorway speed


Anyone have any opinions or input??

Im not that clued up as yet so the more info ro digest the better its looking alot like ill be running with the det3 to begin with for now as its ALOT cheaper and not far off having many of the options you can get with the ms2 and the only downside seems to be the lack of advertised tuners for the det3... im aure this can be overcome though

Cheers in advance

 

[woj]

which i think may be of benefit for 60-70mph crusing on motorways ect??? I.e not constantly being on boost at normal motorway speed

Anyone have any opinions or input??

I think you are getting this wrong a bit. Having a small turbo does not mean you would be going on boost at motorway crusing speeds. While crusing with mildly open throttle they would all go under boost, it is only at the very high speeds or on acceleration that they will start blowing. I would not be lying saying that I often drive at 140km/h still still seeing vacuum on the boost display. Having a small turbo for me has the advantage of being able to accelerate at a snap of the finger at these speeds. That is, the turbo actually works when the engine is under load, not on RPMs.

Also, personally I think people go way overboard with the size of the turbo. A mildly sized one with proper engine control (electronic boost control, etc.) will get you a long way. Very big turbos are only good for 1/4 mile races. In PL people recently chase HP with their t-jet engines in Cinqs and Seis, getting >300 hp results, but the turbos only start doing anything meaningful approaching 5000 rpm, what's the point (for every day drive)? I really like my daily t-jet GP with a tiny turbo which gives me torque immediately after I press the throttle. And it does not bother me that it runs out of puff over 4000 rpm, because in everyday driving I never see higher rpms anyhow. (No, I am not captain slow, only I mostly drive with my complete family in the car ).

Having said that - yes, the turbo needs to be properly and carefully sized for the engine. I like mine (IHI RHB4) but I could do with something slightly larger indeed.

Im not that clued up as yet so the more info ro digest the better its looking alot like ill be running with the det3 to begin with for now as its ALOT cheaper and not far off having many of the options you can get with the ms2 and the only downside seems to be the lack of advertised tuners for the det3... im aure this can be overcome though

ECU master now has a UK domain and sales contact, might be worth asking if they know of people who can do it in UK. And from I know it is not difficult to do it yourself, ask Honeymonster.

 

[Lecook]

Ahh i see... i was under the impression that they come on boost at a certain rev range and stayed on boost.... thinking aboutbit now it was kind of a silly thing to say... however theblast turbo enginebi had was a 306 dturbo newbie error , with that in mind then would you suggest the gt17 from the saab 9-3/9-5 ?? Id quite like boost to pull all the way to the redline, im not over bothered about the lag lower down as that can be counterracted with it being a manual box by dropping a cog or two... but i would like it to pull strong to the end

 

[Razman]

Ahh i see... i was under the impression that they come on boost at a certain rev range and stayed on boost.... thinking aboutbit now it was kind of a silly thing to say... however theblast turbo enginebi had was a 306 dturbo newbie error , with that in mind then would you suggest the gt17 from the saab 9-3/9-5 ?? Id quite like boost to pull all the way to the redline, im not over bothered about the lag lower down as that can be counterracted with it being a manual box by dropping a cog or two... but i would like it to pull strong to the end

The largest standard trim GT15 is the GT1548, which has a T2 style flange on the turbine housing. I'm not sure which style of flange you have on your manifold (3 bolt VAG style?).

The GT1548 is good for up to 200hp! Maybe an option?

 

[Lecook]

The largest standard trim GT15 is the GT1548, which has a T2 style flange on the turbine housing. I'm not sure which style of flange you have on your manifold (3 bolt VAG style?).

The GT1548 is good for up to 200hp! Maybe an option?

any clues on what car ill find them on??

ive got a garrett t15 and a gt15 however the gt15 is welded to the mani, im not too sure whether to keep it as it looks a little.... meh!!! a bit of a bodge, and i dont have the flange for the downpipe, im a little hesitant to have a flange made up because A. i dont know if i want to use that turbo and B. i really dont want to walk into a machine shop and hand it to them it really does look a mess...

ive seen a brand new gt17 on the bay recently with both flanges and the t2 flange does open more options for upgrades... which will inevitably happen

cheers

Lee

 

[Razman]

any clues on what car ill find them on??

ive got a garrett t15 and a gt15 however the gt15 is welded to the mani, im not too sure whether to keep it as it looks a little.... meh!!! a bit of a bodge, and i dont have the flange for the downpipe, im a little hesitant to have a flange made up because A. i dont know if i want to use that turbo and B. i really dont want to walk into a machine shop and hand it to them it really does look a mess...

ive seen a brand new gt17 on the bay recently with both flanges and the t2 flange does open more options for upgrades... which will inevitably happen

cheers

Lee

Not sure, I've only ever seen them new, which is big bucks.

Personally, I'd always opt for the T2 style flange, like you say, more options.

Gt20/25 maybe? T25's are regularly discarded by the SR20 boys over on the nissan forum, maybe a tad large though.

Not sure on a production car with a GT20, you can buy them new, but again, teh monies!

You can buy GT15 turbine housing flanges for not much, however most are mild steel, and we all want stainless

IIRC old saabs have a GT17 with the T2? A search around the mini forums might yield some results, the turbo mini guys are more familiar than most with the 15/17's.

 

[blu73]

i wouldn't just use it as is lee tbh... Where the branches inside the manifold meet they tend to crack and need cutting back a bit to prevent at some point a huge chunk of red hot cast iron blasting through the turbo. Paul has just fit a tubular manifold on my old sei and turns out VanAaken never did this (i thought it had been done by previous owner but was wrong) and it was so close to self destruct mode.

Can get a manifold for not very much, just get one and once decided what turbo get the appropriate flange welded on - any decent engineering shop should be able to weld it but you need to have the manifold preheated before welding and slowly cooled i believe to stop it cracking etc.... I'm no welder lol, just what i read.

 

[Lecook]

i wouldn't just use it as is lee tbh... Where the branches inside the manifold meet they tend to crack and need cutting back a bit to prevent at some point a huge chunk of red hot cast iron blasting through the turbo. Paul has just fit a tubular manifold on my old sei and turns out VanAaken never did this (i thought it had been done by previous owner but was wrong) and it was so close to self destruct mode.

Can get a manifold for not very much, just get one and once decided what turbo get the appropriate flange welded on - any decent engineering shop should be able to weld it but you need to have the manifold preheated before welding and slowly cooled i believe to stop it cracking etc.... I'm no welder lol, just what i read.

I have been looking at the tubular ones.. but they're a tad steep Imo .... I do want something simple and I do want the t2 flange... as I've found that most of the turbos with the t2 flange have redily available downpipe flanges whereas the gt15 and the t15 I have seem to be a bit harder to source or generally silly money..

I have read about the bit in the middle of the mani breaking off.. but tbf I'm not overly bothered about this mani/turbo.. it seems a lot simpler to just make a simple manifold and as I only plan on 150bhp I don't need anything fancy.. eventually if it needs upgrading then that's something I can look at then...

Lee

 

[hf turbo]

the gt15 turbo should be good for 170 bhp mate, i met a chap a year ago or so with a mk2 punto with a gt15. he was running 167 bhp on standard internals. just an extra set of injectors, decomp plate and standalone managment.

you can find the turbo on mg zr's 2.0td, this turbo also has the triangular flange

 

[blu73]

jasons p75 based turbo cinq is running 160-170bhp on stock internals, i would guess my old sei is about that nowadays as well (machined stock pistons to lower CR in that) although that has a random hybrid'd turbo now.. But it pulls like a train right up to the redline, dunno exact spec but basically has bigger compressor turbine as far as i know.

And tubular manifold is not really necessary no, paul is just mad lol... His was 2nd hand and then modded to fit his turbo, bought from a guy in italy.

 

[hf turbo]

where boost comes in can be changed, many factors though mind, size/diameter and length of boost pipes as well as there routing, adjustable actuator, electronic boost control, size of intercooler etc

Tubular manifolds are expensive but cheaper and easier to find someone to mod/repair.
Just the initial expense is a bit of a killer

 

[Lecook]

so now ive decided im going to go for the mitsubishi td04 turbo... slightly bigger then the gt17 and they seem to be more readily available... currently in talks with someone over a deal, also ive paid the guy for the det3 so hopefully ill have that in hand in the next week or 2, hes been kind enough to make up a loom/put lengths of wire into the ecu plug for me so it should be a little more straight forward...

so next question is actuators... is it worth me getting a billet adjustable actuator???

i plan on using Honeymonster method and ill be following his wiring diagram and using the spi cinq ecu, i need to order a r5 gtt uprated i/c and also some pipe to make the manifold up which will be a simple mani made from 5mm thick wall stainless pipe fittings, anyone have any advice on where to get them??

this is roughly what i plan on copying

no beautifully sculpted mani for sure.. but itll do the job i need it to do and as im not planning on huge power i think itll do the job for now and it isnt ugly imo...

thoughts on this??

Still on the hunt for a p75 fuel rail as i rather foolishly sold mine a couple of months ago... i thought i had 2 but it seems i dont

Also still need to source a set of pulleys from either a mk2 punto or a p75, however that shouldnt be a massive problem as theres loads of them in the scrap yards....

Iwill be ordering a hg set tonight and then ill send the block head and gasket to the machine shop to have all the cylinders/combustion chambers modified so i have 8.1:1 across all cylinders and maybe some port work and the usual valve job


cheers
Lee

 

[The Black Box]

What your looking for is what commonly known as dairy bends or 1d bends 5mm thick is way way way too much try 2mm

 

[Razman]

Wouldn't bother with an adjustable actuator, starlet turbo and corsa VXR boys sometimes mess with them for higher boost pressures, but it's a bit of a crap way to do it.

The standard actuator (especially on a TD04) should be more than capable IMO.

 

[Lecook]

so a little has been done.. im still collecting parts and it actually feels like progress is slowly being made...

after realizing the 'spare' wasn't there:bang::bang: i went on the hunt for a p75 fuel rail... unfortunately nobody wanted to sell me one for whatever reason and i couldnt find one for sale on its own.... but fortunately this came up at a reasonably extortionate price....:yuck::yuck: i must just be tight but £60 and it was delivered to my door (thanks puntospares, the guy is great and had it very well packaged and in my hands th next day) i didnt need the inlet or the tb but to be fair theyll come in handy as spares one day... maybe...

so thats the main 'hard to get parts' all sorted now.. hopefully things will be a bit more plain sailing now..

so...

ive been trying different things to try and clean this head up before it goes to the machine shop along with the block and gasket to have the c/r measured, calculated and adjusted
so far ive managed to kill off a can of brake and clutch cleaner, a can of nitromors, a bit of petrol.. some parafin and a bottle of fallout remover... the head is still an oxidized mess in places but its a little cleaner then it was before, next plan of action is to cut up a 20l drum and fill it with phosphoric acid mix and see how well it comes up with that,

the head in question

the valves removed and cleaned up with wire wool and a drill :devil::devil:

they will go away with the head and have the 3angle seats cut and 30deg back cut on the valves.. and then when i get them back ill give them a clean and a polish possibly

a fresh gasket kit from s4p and bolts to match... im not 100% sure on the bolts as they were sold as genuine fiat ones which they clearly arent and ive ony every used payen or genuine bolts before... anyone ever heard of them or used their parts before??

this also became part of the collection...

and Ryan (not sure of his ff username) very kindly built the loom for me, however after close inspection it seems the main loom connector has been damaged at some point.. and as i called the main uk supplier and was told he couldnt supply but could make me a 30cm loom and charge me £35+£8 postage i thanked him and declined....

so off scouring ebay and i found these (for some reason a fair bit cheaper on their website, maybe extortionate p&p to make up for it or something)

http://shakmods.com/shop&#!/20pin-Psu-Connector/p/36714180/category=3316059

ordered in blue of course

and the pins to match

http://shakmods.com/shop&#!/ATX-PCI-EPS-Female-Connector-Pin-Set-10-Pack/p/14152408/category=3316058

and the pin remover to hopefully remove the pins from the connectors and possibly salvage as much as i can

http://shakmods.com/shop&#!/Shakmods-ATX-EPS-PCI-E-Removal-Tool/p/23562758/category=3316063

hopefully on monday the engine will be off to the machine shop, in the mean time i need to get the inlet, tb and fuel rail cleaned up and order the paint for the entire engine..

i need to order some screened cable for the cps (if i cant work out a way of stealing some from one of the many looms laying around in the spares room)

i need to source and order a 3bar map sensor and a 3way boost solenoid

i need to source and buy a slightly smaller intercooler (its waaaay too big for the power i plan on running)

i need to source and order some bolts for the inlet manifold, have the inlet modified and the servo take off moved

i need to source and order some stainless exhaust side studs and nuts

and i need to get the cam shimmed into the head (once ive found the bearing caps and oil spray bar ) and find some 120mm stainless pipe to make the throttle 'bob' (@jatkinson is also gonna measure his bob 'OOO ERR' so i know what height i need)
then i need to go scrappy hunting for a set of biggger injectors.. after ve done some research...

that should about complete the inlet side of things... ish...maybe... most likely not...


hopefully more progress soon

opinions, input and advice always welcome

cheers
lee

 

[woj]

Does not the DET3 have the MAP sensor integrated in the unit?

 

[Lecook]

Not this one unfortunately.. however all is not lost as I plan on using the same sort of setup as honeymonster is, using the standard map sensor for the ecu and the 3bar for the det3

Cheers
Lee

 

[Lecook]

Quick random question, what plugs should I use ?? Standard p75 I believe are bcpr6e on the p75 head however are these going to be suitable for turbo application??

Also dropped the engine at the machine shop today, I need to drop him a plug for when he does the cr match

Cheers
Lee

 

[woj]

I use one step colder with the triple tip, BCPR7ET. These are essentially the same as Punto GT uses.

 

[Razman]

and Ryan (not sure of his ff username) very kindly built the loom for me, however after close inspection it seems the main loom connector has been damaged at some point.. and as i called the main uk supplier and was told he couldnt supply but could make me a 30cm loom and charge me £35+£8 postage i thanked him and declined....

Lee you donut, it's me

Shame about the connector, I spent quite a few hours making that loom. Surely you can re-use the wire at least? There's some decent money in that I reckon.

Doesn't it connect to the ECU properly? Can the damaged pin not be removed & replaced?

To answer the map sensor question, the DET3 has the option of a map sensor for a bit more money, but I bought this with the intention of fitting it to an NA engine, so didn't need it.

Anyway, all the best with your project mate, looking good so far, keep it up!