General If they are so bad.... why has everyone still got one

[TrevC]

Another one in the "boring" camp - 4-year old TA Lounge, 33k, no issues apart from tiny cooling pipe leak. My mate has a slightly younger Twinair model, with 50k and also no issues. It's impossible to tell how common all of the reported "common" problems are, but at least thanks to this forum I'll have some idea of how to proceed if the doorhandle breaks, hatch wiring fractures etc.
We liked the look of the Cactus for our "bigger" car, but I like the seats to fold flat (they don't in the Cactus). The lack of a tacho wouldn't bother me, but I wasn't sure about adjusting the heater controls via the touch screen - does it work if you are wearing gloves?

 

[JTD_Liam]

Maybe the days of reliable cars are coming to an end as costs are cut.I am reluctant to buy new equipment at work as much of that is now made in third world countries,costs a fortune and goes wrong.

I think this is a key point. Car parts, as with parts for many things nowadays, just aren't made to a high quality in many cases. Whether you're buying a car, a washing machine, or a mobile phone, everything seems more fragile & shorter lived than 10 years ago. I remember my first mobile phones working just as well after two years as they did on day one - my latest Samsung phone (new in September 2014) already has a camera that doesn't load & a power button that's sinking into the side of the phone. I have a 1988 Zanussi washing machine which is still in perfect working order (bought second hand a few years ago), yet eBay is littered with 18 month old washing machines of all makes which have failed bearings, broken electronics, etc.

Then there's cars - my first car, a 1992 Renault Clio, and a 1996 Fiat Punto lasted until at least 15 years old until they were scrapped (outside my ownership). Nowadays I see cars as young as 10 years old being scrapped - a mates low mileage 2002 Ford Focus was scrapped by 2012, despite him looking after his cars as much as I did mine, and my Parents old Renault Laguna appears to have been scrapped at 10 years old too. My Dad's got a 2007 Vauxhall Vivaro van with the awful M32 gearbox (well known to cause problems in Fiat Group cars). The bearings failed at 70,000 miles and the gearbox re-built. By 95,000 miles the bearings are whining again. On returning to the garage the mechanic said he just can't get decent bearings anymore - he used to get good quality bearings from Sheffield, now they all come from Eastern Europe or the far East and are cheap & nasty.

I think it's just a sign of the times, people want something for the same sort of price they used to pay (in relative terms) years ago, but with all the modern kit we never used to have (touchscreens on phones, Bluetooth & safety kit in cars, etc). Something therefore has to give and it appears this is the quality of some components, but are Fiat unique in this, absolutely not. They actually do pretty well compared to some companies. The main place Fiat fall down (badly) is backup and aftercare.

 

[werdna]

" yet eBay is littered with 18 month old washing machines of all makes which have failed bearings, broken electronics, etc. " You young whippersnappers are being brought up in a disposable society. I had a washing machine that had had new brushes for the motor, 2 new fan belts and a set of drum bearings replaced. Having done that it lasted over 15 years and still did a good job.

 

[JTD_Liam]

" yet eBay is littered with 18 month old washing machines of all makes which have failed bearings, broken electronics, etc. " You young whippersnappers are being brought up in a disposable society. I had a washing machine that had had new brushes for the motor, 2 new fan belts and a set of drum bearings replaced. Having done that it lasted over 15 years and still did a good job.

We are. I hate it. I remember my Dad even taking Mums iron apart to repair it on countless occasions before we finally chucked it out. Now you just chuck them away and buy new. I'm slightly better than average, like with my washing machine being from the 80s etc. However the trouble is, even if you want to try and fix things, nobody else does - trying to get an engineer to repair the bearings on another washer was met with 'bearing changes are a thing of the past now sadly. I'd recommend you spend the money on a new Bosch, as it'll be made in Germany'.

For one, the machine is sufficiently old enough to have just the bearings changed, not like new washing machines where the bearings are sealed into the outer tub, requiring the whole tub replacement. Secondly Bosch hardly make any washers in Germany anymore - they come out of countries like Spain or Turkey - even my Parents relatively high spec Bosch fridge-freezer has a sticker inside saying 'Made in Turkey', so I know if I bought a new Bosch i'd fall into the cycle of a new washer every 3 years, just like if I bought a cheaper brand like Indesit - it's funny how the 'German engineering' tag is applied to appliances in the same way it's applied to cars, even though the reality is they're rarely any better nowadays.

Also, the general way things are made and the infrastructure for repairs just isn't there anymore. Older things were made so that they lasted, but if something did break, they could be dismantled & fixed. Presumably this method cost manufacturers more and has therefore been replaced by a method of building to last a few years till something breaks, then throw it away/recycle it & buy new.

If you get 2 years from a mobile phone, 4 years from a washing machine and 10 years from a car, you're doing well now. 15 years ago people would've been horrified at that

 

[frupi]

I'd buy one and add an OBDII tacho

Yup, I have a Scangauge II, which is permanently plugged into my Saab OBD port. I just like to see the other stuff, water temp, battery voltage, digital mph and boost info. It's a great bit of kit, had it for 7 years now and I've even had the firmware upgraded in it over that time. So yes, there are options about adding a tacho in a very easy way if you want to.

 

[AGH1965]

I find the C4 Cactus a very original car, but I will never buy it, since it doesn't have a rev counter.

So yes, there are options about adding a tacho in a very easy way if you want to.

That's not my point. You can also install your own seats in your car, but I prefer it to be delivered with seats. What were these guys at Citroën thinking when they deliberately omitted the tacho? Or has the average Citroën driver so little knowledge about engines that a tacho would be useless anyway?

 

[frupi]

That's not my point. You can also install your own seats in your car, but I prefer it to be delivered with seats. What were these guys at Citroën thinking when they deliberately omitted the tacho? Or has the average Citroën driver so little knowledge about engines that a tacho would be useless anyway?

I think in all honesty, you'll probably, more than likely find, that the average driver, couldn't care less about whether there is a tacho present or not. Indeed, I could probably put 10 quid on it that the vast majority of drivers NEVER look at the tacho under normal driving conditions, especially young Mrs Miggins doing the school run or popping down to the supermarket. Most blokes more than likely don't bother looking at the tacho either, they just get in and drive! So I'd argue Citroen have realised this and decided it isn't actually worth chucking one in the car!

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

I think in all honesty, you'll probably, more than likely find, that the average driver, couldn't care less about whether there is a tacho present or not. Indeed, I could probably put 10 quid on it that the vast majority of drivers NEVER look at the tacho under normal driving conditions, especially young Mrs Miggins doing the school run or popping down to the supermarket. Most blokes more than likely don't bother looking at the tacho either, they just get in and drive! So I'd argue Citroen have realised this and decided it isn't actually worth chucking one in the car!

Agreed; when I bought my first car tachos were confined to 'sports' cars and were comparatively rare, now most cars above the cheapest econobox have one even though most users wouldn't know what to do with it. I especially wonder why they have them in autos these days.

 

[ahmett]

I think in all honesty, you'll probably, more than likely find, that the average driver, couldn't care less about whether there is a tacho present or not. Indeed, I could probably put 10 quid on it that the vast majority of drivers NEVER look at the tacho under normal driving conditions, especially young Mrs Miggins doing the school run or popping down to the supermarket. Most blokes more than likely don't bother looking at the tacho either, they just get in and drive! So I'd argue Citroen have realised this and decided it isn't actually worth chucking one in the car!

you reminded me of the Peugeot clip in Top Gear = ) Peugeot and Citroen same company! haha

 

[ahmett]

Agreed; when I bought my first car tachos were confined to 'sports' cars and were comparatively rare, now most cars above the cheapest econobox have one even though most users wouldn't know what to do with it. I especially wonder why they have them in autos these days.

are you serious? I always look at my tacho so i know when to change up!

 

[snes]

Would that be at the red line, Ahmett......

 

[ahmett]

Would that be at the red line, Ahmett......

when i am on a clear road yes generally, either case above 5,000 rpm until i change up to 5th to cruise.
hitting the rev limiter slows you down!
The sweet spot of changing in the 1.4 is around 6,500 rpm to 7,000 rpm, you need to make sure the change to 2nd gear happens as late as possible (but no later than 7 as you then hit the limiter at about 7,500) due to the engines low torque below 4,000 rpm and the wide ratio between 1st and 2nd.

 

[Squadrone Rosso]

People have them, problems aside, because they get under your skin.

They have the "it" factor, something you quantify.

I've owned / own cars that are three times the price / 4 times the BHP / 3 times as many cylinders as my old 500 TA+ but not quite got to me like that car did. Ditto my old Seicento Schmacher.

That said, the Panda TA Cross that replaced my 500 is rapidly getting under my skin but it's not quite the 500

 

[Super Uwe]

People have them, problems aside, because they get under your skin.

They have the "it" factor, something you quantify.

I've owned / own cars that are three times the price / 4 times the BHP / 3 times as many cylinders as my old 500 TA+ but not quite got to me like that car did. Ditto my old Seicento Schmacher.

That sad, the Panda TA Cross that replaced my 500 is rapidly getting under my skin but it's not quite the 500

I know, tis the problem with the Panda.

We felt exactly the same with our old Panda which we owned after the 500. The new shape Panda is the better car in so many ways compared to the 500, but it just doesn't leave you with the same feeling as a 500.

We now have a 500 (13 plate) and a Punto (62 plate) in the family, and actually it's really shocking how much more refined the Punto feels compared to the 500! I never remember our original 500 feeling so primitive when we bought it.

As has already been mentioned, there has been a fair bit of negativity on here and I do honestly think a lot of it is down to Fiat's attitude towards their customers. If they can ever sort that side of things out then they could be a real strong player in the UK...but am not holding my breath.

 

[Squadrone Rosso]

The Panda will stay, for sure

It's really very good and being the Cross version, is uber funky

Both excellent cars.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

are you serious? I always look at my tacho so i know when to change up!

And I'm sure you do Ahmett, as do all who take a keen interest in their driving. On the other hand, as I said, most drivers wouldn't miss the tacho if it wasn't there, especially as more people seem to specify automatics these days.

 

[Mercky]

when i am on a clear road yes generally, either case above 5,000 rpm until i change up to 5th to cruise.
hitting the rev limiter slows you down!
The sweet spot of changing in the 1.4 is around 6,500 rpm to 7,000 rpm, you need to make sure the change to 2nd gear happens as late as possible (but no later than 7 as you then hit the limiter at about 7,500) due to the engines low torque below 4,000 rpm and the wide ratio between 1st and 2nd.

So how long did your Dualogic gearbox last again?

 

[Mercky]

The Panda will stay, for sure



It's really very good and being the Cross version, is uber funky



Both excellent cars.

Do you notice the extra 5bhp over the 500? I suppose it's difficult to tell with the 6 speed box?

 

[Squadrone Rosso]

Do you notice the extra 5bhp over the 500? I suppose it's difficult to tell with the 6 speed box?

Weirdly, despite being heavier and beint permanent (albeing 2%) 4WD, it feels punchier than the 500.

Queiter & more solid too. I was expecting it to be much noiser what with the M&S tyres, roof bars & so on but it's not.

First gear is very short. Economy is a good 10mpg down on my 500 though

 

[Mercky]

Weirdly, despite being heavier and being permanent (albeing 2%) 4WD, it feels punchier than the 500.



Queiter & more solid too. I was expecting it to be much noiser what with the M&S tyres, roof bars & so on but it's not.



First gear is very short. Economy is a good 10mpg down on my 500 though

Yeh other Panda TA owners, even the 85, seem to think it's punchier then the 500, I reckon you probably have more in-gear torque from the ratio spread on the 6 speed, maybe it's mapped differently too.