General Hybrid start-stop

[Jerseywurzel]

Hi guys,
So I just traded in my 2029 1.2 lounge for a 2022 1litre hybrid sport. Have to say I do like the look of the sport over the lounge.
I've been for a 20 mile drive but the start stop didn't cut in once. Neither did the hybrid motor, that could feel or see on the dashboard.

The start stop is connected so is there anything else I need to do for it to work? Or just wait a few days?

The start stop worked fine in the lounge but I don't remember if I had to do anything when I fist bought it.
Thanks

 

[IanWalrus]

Start/Stop seems to be connected to having the battery fully charged/in good condition. Mine's 'tempramental' if it's sat for a few days and the battery isn't charged regularly (by driving it), the s/s doesn't work. Go on a long run and it works fine for a few days.

 

[Marcus Daly]

Couldn’t tell you. The first thing I do when I start my Panda is switch off S/S. That’s for Fiat’s benefit (emissions fiddle), not yours.

 

[The Panda Nut]

You shouldnt feel the hybrid doing much. If its working OK you should barely notice it. If its working the best way to see it it the dash indicators. The hybrid is a light hybrid and doesnt really boost engine power but is involve din the sop start. I hope its not a dealer trip. AT least its still under its main warranty. It requires a new driving style to make it work effectively so I would recommend a good read of teh handbook.

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi guys,
So I just traded in my 2029 1.2 lounge for a 2022 1litre hybrid sport. Have to say I do like the look of the sport over the lounge.
I've been for a 20 mile drive but the start stop didn't cut in once. Neither did the hybrid motor, that could feel or see on the dashboard.

The start stop is connected so is there anything else I need to do for it to work? Or just wait a few days?

The start stop worked fine in the lounge but I don't remember if I had to do anything when I fist bought it.
Thanks

Probably low volts in battery; it has been cold...

 

[Jerseywurzel]

Probably low volts in battery; it has been cold...

Yeah, so it kicked in on day 3, both start stop and the hybrid. Guess the battery just needed charging.
As you say, it's a new driving style, especially with 6 gears!
But have to say, I'm loving it. It's so much quieter than the lounge but that engine sounds like an F1 car! Lol
Thanks for the replies

 

[varesecrazy]

Which sounds better?, the Firefly..??

(Developed in Brasil.. )

Must say I Am 'underwhelmed' by my 2018 FIRE..

 

[Goudrons]

The Stop/Start system uses the starter/generator and hybrid battery, not like the old Stop/Start system that used the normal battery and starter motor.

Start the car cold and it will start like any other, power from the normal lead acid battery powering the usual starter motor.

Once the car is warm and has generated power into the hybrid battery, it will use this for Stop/Start.
The starter/generator spins the engine back into life as it's smoother and uses wasted energy rather than having to keep recharging the lead acid battery everytime it's restarted.
This way the alternator doesn't have to work as hard or as often, saving fuel.

As you can imagine, the starter/generator and hybrid battery has three demands on it.
1. Generate power for the hybrid battery.
2. Help power the engine under certian conditions.
3. The Stop/Start system.

It can't do the last two until it's done the first, so needs a chance to fill the hybrid battery first.
It will also prioritise 1 and 2 before it does 3, otherwise there's a chance it might not restart.

Chances are, out of the box there'd just be a trickle of stored energy in the hybrid battery and requires a bit of running around to charge it up enough to start doing it's job.

I had a Citroen Airdream diesel that did something similar but without it helping out the engine.
It took wasted energy and stored it in capacitors, then used that for the restart.
To help recharge the engine would conk out just before you came to a full stop, so in those final few metres it was regening like mad.
It worked pretty seemlessly, in fact it's about the best Stop/Start system I've experianced.

 

[Jerseywurzel]

Which sounds better?, the Firefly..??

(Developed in Brasil.. )

Must say I Am 'underwhelmed' by my 2018 FIRE..

Yes, the Firefly engine sounds good. Nippy round town, too

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Fiat's (and most other car makers') current use of the term Hybrid is very misleading.

The first hybrids were the Toyota type, where the car has both a petrol engine (with starter motor) and an electric motor, and a beefy storage battery for the latter. These drive off the electric when they can, but if they need an extra bit of oomph, or the battry's running low, then the petrol starts up and powers the car, and drives an alternator to recharge the battery. Now, to help make this clear, they are called 'self charging hybrids'

Next came 'plug in hybrids' where the battery for the electric motor is charged by plugging the car into the mains, Once the charge is used, that's it - it's all petrol after that. Normally they can manage about 30 miles of pure electric travel. Very few (if any?) plug-in hybrids can partially recharge the battery (eg through regenerative braking) while driving.

Now, Fiat (and others) use the Hybrid badge to woo buyers and appear to be green, but it's only really a 'mild hybrid' . This is little more than normal stop/start, except it 'stops' (the engine cuts out') while the car is still rolling to a stop (i believe, when it drops below 18km/h?), and when pulling away again it basically uses a beefed up starter motor as the initial power, before it starts the petrol engine. So it will feel like any other stop/start but with the extended 'off' (rather than 'stop') period when the electrics briefly do a (tiny) bit of the work. As well as the normal battery under the bonnet, there's a second, very small(!) one, which I think its under the front seat? As mentioned above, the starter is combined with the alternator in one unit. In around town driving, this mild hybrid system can produce a bit of a fuel saving (mostly through turning the engine off a bit sooner, and partly through less weight by combining the starter and alternator, although this is probably cancelled out by the weight of another battery). But on the open road, unlike the original definition of hybrid where the electric and petrol could act together for a surge of power, a mild system will offer no benefit and so no better fuel consumption.

That said, it is a start in the right direction, but I would argue the use of the term hybrid is very misleading...

 

[Goudrons]

You don't want to be too unfair on mild hybrids.
We seem to get caught up with thinking they should "add" something to the mix in terms of power, where in reality they replace.
The main advantage is they reduce emissions for a relatively small cost and weight.

They aid acceleration slightly from standstill/slow speed which is where a lot of the engines emissions come from.
The electric part isn't designed to add power on top of the ICE or completely replace it, it's designed to add some power instead of getting all of it from the ICE when the engine is inefficient.
Think of them being one power unit, the ICE and small electric motor together driving the gearbox
The electric kicks in a helping hand when the ICE isn't at it's best.

It's by no means perfect, but little is. There's a fine balance between emissions/economy and any extra weight they may add from batteries and motors.

They a lot cheaper to produce than what are considered full, self charging hybrids (though that term is debatable) which have now started to move on a bit.

These types of hybrids tend to utilise larger motor/generators and bigger batteries, but what the lord gives, the lord takes away, they are much heavier than a mild hybrid and far more expensive.

There are usually two motor/generators, one of which can power the gearbox independently without the ICE being ran.
The other is usually used for regeneration, starting the ICE when needed and sometimes used for reverse.
They also tend to run more efficient gearboxes, like CVT's.

Think of them as being the ICE and electric motor as seperate power units that can independently power or combine to power the gearbox.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

You don't want to be too unfair on mild hybrids.
We seem to get caught up with thinking they should "add" something to the mix in terms of power…

I’ve nothing against the mild hybrid concept - an improvement over basic stop/start for sure. But I do disagree with the way they’re marketed - in a world where hybrid used to imply a car that would drive a fair part of the time (round town at least) on battery power, these ‘mild’ versions are far from a hybrid in that sense, and will spend nearly all the time burning petrol.

 

[Goudrons]

With Hybrids, only Plug ins burn anything other than petrol.
A Self Charger's initial source of power is petrol alone, it's just they've spent more money to capture, store and use wasted energy than the mild versions, which they need because of the extra weight, so perhaps the marketing of those was suspect as well.

I'm not sure I ever understood a Hybrid to mean it could run on electric alone, I was always under the impression they were developed to reduce emissions. Sure some manufacturers ran with the concept and built "look what we can do" models like the Porsche 918 or the McLaren P1 where the electrified part added to the ICE but they are few and far between on the everyday car market.

Different manufacturers went different ways to supply them, some sold expensive systems that people were delighted to pay for, others are now cheap enough to only offer that option in the cars they sell.
This I'm sure was driven by the need to reduce their fleets overall emissions levels rather than the main aim being to increase overall mpg, it's just a bonus it did most of the time.


If you looked at them as a way to reduce fuel used, you'd be a bit disappointed paying the extra for one, it would likely take many many years before the extra cost of the car outweight the fuel saved, particularly when there are other options that may do a bit better but not cost as much.

OK most are more efficient than a straight petrol but even the latest hybrids still struggle to match similar sized diesels for mpg.
They are improving though as as we know emissions from diesels are different than those from a petrol which makes that alternative less attactive.


I guess we want to read into what we want with a Hybrid and as they weren't perhaps designed to do that we are likely to be disappointed.
Seems like people want a hybrid you still to pour petrol into rather than keep plugging it in, have it run on electric all the time yet use no fuel??

 

[Cornish Ian]

I expect a lot of people on here would be interested in any real world comparison of MPG figures between hybrid and normal versions, ideally with like for like engines to get a fair comparison.
A friend of mine has recently bought a fiesta hybrid that he uses to travel to work. His journey involves a lot of steep hills so presumably he is getting a lot of regenerative braking that should make good use of the system.
He has also gone from an older engine design to fords newer eco engine which presumably will be slanting his figures a little but he says it is saving him a significant amount in fuel every month.

 

[Marcus Daly]

I got well over 80 MPG in my last Prius without breaking a sweat. 90 in optimum circumstances. Earlier Toyota and Lexus hybrids delivered around 70. And none of the soot, stench or racket of a diseasel. I drove nothing else for fifteen years. EVs are the future but Toyota HSD is the best compromise in the real world. I’ll almost certainly go back to one in due course (my Panda 4x4 was bought for a very specific reason that no longer applies).

 

[timmycm850]

so I've read all the above and can input here based upon actual ownership and as a comparison to 2 x previous 1.2 pandas both 60hp and 69hp.

The hybrid start stop system will work once the main battery is recharged, also if the fans are running at 50% or above it won't cut out due to the current drain. Also the clutch pedal has to go entirely to the floor for the start stop system to register. It will cut out at 18mph or less if its out of gear and foot off the clutch, I often do this whilst moving in slow traffic.
Being mild hybrid it will not move under electric power alone. What the mild hybrid does is fill the low revs (euro 6 hole) and boost power at launch and upon acceleration.

To put numbers on it our
2005 1.2 60hp car averages 44mpg without trying.

2013 1.2 69hp car averages 42mpg without trying.

2021 1.0 hybrid sport averages 49mpg without trying. This is running on e10 petrol too

But in all cases more can be achieved if effort is put in to be more economical. In other words the regular driver is the same but it could be more economical.

Tim

 

[timmycm850]

ps the similar sized Toyota Yaris was double the price for a full hybrid so I guess you could get more economy from a toyota hybrid but an outlay of £13k to get a bit more economy its a case of working out your costing numbers. Personal preference.

Ps I put the £8k into my solar panels 2 years ago so let's workout if that was worth it on my much reduced electricity bill lately.

Tim

 

[timmycm850]

So I've just worked out it takes 321.000 miles at current prices for the extra cost of buying a Toyota 70mpg to be used up by the Fiat mild hybrid 49mpg(actual)in fuel costs. Whilst we are averaging 7k per year I don't think its going to pay back. That's without taking into account of the interest earned on £13k per year cumulative at improving savings rates.

 

[timmycm850]

So 2% saving interest on £13000 gives £260 per year and that's enough for 1935 miles at 49mpg. So I've only got to pay for 5k miles now.

Saving saving saving.

This is all assuming I didn't get the Toyota on hp and end up paying £3000 in interest!.

 

[timmycm850]

ppps. The hybrid 1.0 was only £300 more than the same trim level 1.2 on the FIATS price lists early in 2021 when you could order either model.

So really not much for a hybrid upgrade