I realise this too. Im going to start work on a cinq kit fairly soon and see how it sells. ive got a tester lined up too and he can use it for a week or so to give me his verdict etc. As for RR. Ide have to look into this too. however, Ive never seen an RR graph for any of the kits avaliable for the cinq. Even the GSR. Yet they sell well.
How much would you pay...
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How much would you pay...
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for a proper kit, prob £200+, always gotta have the best
Dunc
Dunc
you be better off seing if peter will give you a % to sell the gsr, that be good all round then 
no thats ok
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Bushboy said:
Don't forget the ECU has to learn it, so the tester needs to do a couple of hundred miles in a week
why not, does the site of a mad german running around gaydon with a big knife worry you?Bushboy said:no thats ok
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just out of interest bushboy why did you not fit the gsr kit?
he did didnt he, then took it of as he remembered hes a used car dealer not a modderSchooweeNick said:
I did fit it, I took the measurements and cut the kit down as peter asked. then took it off as I dont have the tools to unbolt the air sensor so couldnt fit it. Plus Im selling the car and dont have the money to buy the GSR for a car im selling a week later.
Didnt get a thanks from Peter for doing him a favour though...
Didnt get a thanks from Peter for doing him a favour though...
nasty him, thats like going to scrappy for someone and not getting cakeBushboy said:Didnt get a thanks from Peter for doing him a favour though...
not quite the same dave. I said thank you many a time. Plus i would have appologised for not turning up when I said I would.
no cake is worse you picked up the other hamster yet?
you picked up the other hamster yet?im not having the hamster
Will you test the induction kit on a rolling road to prove they work Chris? Not sure what I'd pay to be honest, though with a genuine rolling road before and after print out showing improvements I'd be more tempted to shell out 50+ quid maybe.
A lot of the cheap induction kits only make extra noise and are just for show
A lot of the cheap induction kits only make extra noise and are just for show
These wouldnt be aimed at just making noise. Im sure they would but I would be looking at performance gains.
I would test the kits myself to see if there is a noticable increase and also give them to a tester for a week or so to see if they do too etc. Plus if possible I will get them tested on a rolling road.
However, as said, how many of you here have actually asked for a RR report before buying a kit? Most compaies either claim figures or dont atall on there kits, so whos to say they arent just making it up anyway?
I would test the kits myself to see if there is a noticable increase and also give them to a tester for a week or so to see if they do too etc. Plus if possible I will get them tested on a rolling road.
However, as said, how many of you here have actually asked for a RR report before buying a kit? Most compaies either claim figures or dont atall on there kits, so whos to say they arent just making it up anyway?
Bushboy said:
Chris, you are going to make a big mistake in your assessment. I have no real reason to tell you this other than that I am trying to be fair to people.
To start with you mentioned 5 models, which have some problems attached for your ideas.
The Cinquecento is virtually 'under my control'. Rob Whithney tried to brake into this one with virtually no chance. The mistake he made is that he invested for one thing into a dying market and had to come up with an unrealistic price. The £99 we have to charge, some people see as a rip off.
Currently we pay £9.50 + VAT for delivery. Deducting this from the induction leaves £87.84. Packaging costs are just over £1. This leaves after deducting the VAT £73.91. The bop does comes in to us for over £5 + VAT. We have to purchase jubilee clips and the sleeves at a further £1+ plus VAT. This leaves us less than £68 for the filter, the hose, overheads and research and development costs.
On Average the development costs us in money to pay out with all work done to the finished product in the region of £2000.
One of the many underestimated problems with induction kits is the fitting of them. You have to find a way to make it possible to be fitted as people need to do it on budget cars themselves as they can't afford the extra cost.
Coming back to the other models.
The Punto JTD induction kit you wan't be able to do cheaper and you will have to make a very expensive tooling to do it right if you want to make it in silicone and if you think to make it in any other material: Forget it.
The Bravo/Brava is a dying market. You will have to compete against K&N.
The revised Seicento kit is near completion. It is till date the most complicated tool to fabricate because it must be made in a way that the hoses can be taken off. This is not only a problem when you need to deal with a split tooling. Bends are always a problem, which limits the possibilities of routing and turn things very costly when trying to overcome in a technically sound way.
Water entry, dirt, lack of cold air, lack of air on moving vehicles due to aerodynamic reasons are all things to be considered on top. And to deal with abuse doesn't make it any easier.
If I could start all over again my career I wouldn't do this again. But I started, suffered and had to succeed and learned to deal with a very complex market and an even more complex technical mine field.
You are trying (even if you think different) to compete with K&N who have a very strong name. The only level you can place yourself is where GSR products are aimed for and looking into the Italian field is absolutely wrong in these days as it is a non profit area of the market. There is only 3 areas you can make money in but need to be well established: The Japanese high end market, the German cars and French cars.
My conclusion on this project for your position would be the following and this withoput being disrespectful:
Don't bother unless you want to be another statistics on the failure list of small companies entering this widely misundertood field. Save your money and invest it into a field you can realistically do something.
No way would I buy an induction kit from any source that could not back up their claims with a rolling road test and irrefutable proof. What Peter does with these induction kits is little short if genius and takes years of study and understanding I know this all to well as I owned an engineering company and understand the work that goes into it. I have the graff's for my car when it went on the dyno and this can be seen in the stilo section [If your interested that is ]getting the length, diameters,tapers ,and bends in the correct place is not a guessing job and can only be worked out by a set of mathematical equations so if you are going to run some piping in the engine bay of any car you get your hands on and stuff a filter on the end and think that's it I've cracked it forget it now go to night school for a few years and study flow dynamics and then you may have an idea of where you are going
wotnowarninglight
Member
Voted £60-£80... reckon most people will be like 'but I can get a 57i kit off 'net for £80 odd' and think thats what you will be up against... Good Luck anyhow
i dont have any of the cars you're on about but i have to agree with some of the doubters on here BB, sorry!
As Pete and PNL (p.s its graph, not graff, thought you owned an engineering co.!) said you're talking about very complicated flow rates and mathematical equations. not too mention extensive testing..
what happens if something goes wrong with one of the kits and you get sued?
personally, i wouldnt buy a kit unless it was developed by a reputable compnany with experience.
IMO you buy cheap, you buy twice.
As Pete and PNL (p.s its graph, not graff, thought you owned an engineering co.!
) said you're talking about very complicated flow rates and mathematical equations. not too mention extensive testing..what happens if something goes wrong with one of the kits and you get sued?
personally, i wouldnt buy a kit unless it was developed by a reputable compnany with experience.
IMO you buy cheap, you buy twice.
interesting idea, lets give it a 5 minute analysis
the 'bolt on' market for car parts at firsts seems very lucrative.
if you consider the target market you'll be selling to
advantages-
-there are many 'modders' looking to buy filters. its a growing market and much bigger than the usual niche market.
-the customers are easy and cheap to find and market to (forums and ebay are prime examples)
-the customers on average have little mechanical knowledge and are easily misled "or sold to" (most common marketing method in this sector)
-they expect to pay high prices for junk (just ask halfords and motorfactors who laugh at them all day)
disadvantages-
-boyracers want to have a brand name so they can say they have something that will get them street cred with spotty 15 year olds (needs to be a known mcdonalds carpark name to charge good money). if you dont have a brand name you cant charge more than other no namer ebay filters (£10-20)
overall i'd say its a good target market and the chance of profit is higher than for the average market.
then consider the product
advantages-
-parts are cheap and easily sourced
-fitting is simple so you can sell a complete "in the box solution" to the end user direct (called product independance, improtant for a small scale operation)
-storage, packaging and distribution cost are relatively low (not hard to post, not big, not heavy, not dangerous)
-there is little or no regulation about the quality or safety requirements of the product (sell them something that is crap and you're legally ok, something the boyracer market depends on)
-most cars can be catered for using the same parts so development and design is not a "start from scratch" process. vital to a small scale operation
disadvanatges-
-anyone can make an airfilter, and many people already do. unless you bring something new to the market you cant expect to steal sales and market share. the big boys have tried everything, what do you think you know that they dont? there isnt really much development you can do to an airfilter if you truely understand mechanics and engineering, although its easy to convince people that you have something special so the percieved advanatage of your fake unique selling point can be used, as it always is with bolt ons.
-air filters need to have a professional finish, they're on show in the engine bay and need to look good. price is relative to percieved quality and value, this requires top manufacturing processes to get a good finish and consistency, this is not practicle in small scale operations so you risk an investment is a product that cant compete with the budget brands, nevermind the big boys.
-air filters last too long to expect repeat customers, you need to find new customers all the time, this is harder for a small scale operation, you'd need market exposure. it costs more and takes longer to find a new customer for every sale. you cant build up a small loyal customer base as they wont be buying a new filter every month, and a loyal customer base is often one of the keys to a small scale operation's success.
overall i'd say an induciton kit is one of the worse products a small scale operation could choose to produce. if you went into the lion's den they'd throw things at you.
but also consider the competiton in the market
advanatges
-no one can stop you entering the market and competing
-you can compete side by side in many cases using the same marketing channels as the big boys (ebay, websites etc)
disadvantages
-there are many well established brands that you cant compete with on price
-there are many cheap alternatives that you MUST compete with on quality
-the marketing methods used by the competiton are often aggressive creating a strong brand (just look at all the k&n ads)
-there are no barriers to entry so anyone can sell to anyone "aka perfect competition", this is probably the hardest type of market to compete, grow or survive in, especially for a small scale operation. if you did make it someoue would buy you out and put you out of business for very little money, or crush you if you refuse.
so competiton wise it couldnt be worse for a small scale operation. you'll get eaten alive if you get noticed, and if you dont you'll fail in silence.
in summary, the best you can hope for is a small following on a forum or two, producing just enough sales to keep you busy on weekends, and thet would take a lot of admin and marketing time and energy from you, aside from all the development, manufacturing, distribution etc etc etc. its not a real business opportunity and although you dont invest a large amount of capital, so you wont take too big a risk, there is a real danger that you'll waste a lot of time.
if a 5 minute brainstorm paints a picture this gloomy you really have to consider the probable outcome of taking on this venture. what can you gain? what can you lose? not a lot either way, so why not try anyway you may think? well consider it this way, why waste the time when you could use that time doing something with a much better chance of success and profit. if you want to do it purely for the passion and enjoyment then go for it, if you really want some money and you dont have the time to waste then it would be foolish to bother.
if you really want to try it then by all means give it your best. you learn more from your mistakes than your successes and i'm sure it will be a good learning experience. just dont lie in bed at night dreaming about how you'll spend all the millions you'll make. you have a better chance of making money cleaning windows (which is actually a very lucrative industry percentage wise)
the 'bolt on' market for car parts at firsts seems very lucrative.
if you consider the target market you'll be selling to
advantages-
-there are many 'modders' looking to buy filters. its a growing market and much bigger than the usual niche market.
-the customers are easy and cheap to find and market to (forums and ebay are prime examples)
-the customers on average have little mechanical knowledge and are easily misled "or sold to" (most common marketing method in this sector)
-they expect to pay high prices for junk (just ask halfords and motorfactors who laugh at them all day)
disadvantages-
-boyracers want to have a brand name so they can say they have something that will get them street cred with spotty 15 year olds (needs to be a known mcdonalds carpark name to charge good money). if you dont have a brand name you cant charge more than other no namer ebay filters (£10-20)
overall i'd say its a good target market and the chance of profit is higher than for the average market.
then consider the product
advantages-
-parts are cheap and easily sourced
-fitting is simple so you can sell a complete "in the box solution" to the end user direct (called product independance, improtant for a small scale operation)
-storage, packaging and distribution cost are relatively low (not hard to post, not big, not heavy, not dangerous)
-there is little or no regulation about the quality or safety requirements of the product (sell them something that is crap and you're legally ok, something the boyracer market depends on)
-most cars can be catered for using the same parts so development and design is not a "start from scratch" process. vital to a small scale operation
disadvanatges-
-anyone can make an airfilter, and many people already do. unless you bring something new to the market you cant expect to steal sales and market share. the big boys have tried everything, what do you think you know that they dont? there isnt really much development you can do to an airfilter if you truely understand mechanics and engineering, although its easy to convince people that you have something special so the percieved advanatage of your fake unique selling point can be used, as it always is with bolt ons.
-air filters need to have a professional finish, they're on show in the engine bay and need to look good. price is relative to percieved quality and value, this requires top manufacturing processes to get a good finish and consistency, this is not practicle in small scale operations so you risk an investment is a product that cant compete with the budget brands, nevermind the big boys.
-air filters last too long to expect repeat customers, you need to find new customers all the time, this is harder for a small scale operation, you'd need market exposure. it costs more and takes longer to find a new customer for every sale. you cant build up a small loyal customer base as they wont be buying a new filter every month, and a loyal customer base is often one of the keys to a small scale operation's success.
overall i'd say an induciton kit is one of the worse products a small scale operation could choose to produce. if you went into the lion's den they'd throw things at you.
but also consider the competiton in the market
advanatges
-no one can stop you entering the market and competing
-you can compete side by side in many cases using the same marketing channels as the big boys (ebay, websites etc)
disadvantages
-there are many well established brands that you cant compete with on price
-there are many cheap alternatives that you MUST compete with on quality
-the marketing methods used by the competiton are often aggressive creating a strong brand (just look at all the k&n ads)
-there are no barriers to entry so anyone can sell to anyone "aka perfect competition", this is probably the hardest type of market to compete, grow or survive in, especially for a small scale operation. if you did make it someoue would buy you out and put you out of business for very little money, or crush you if you refuse.
so competiton wise it couldnt be worse for a small scale operation. you'll get eaten alive if you get noticed, and if you dont you'll fail in silence.
in summary, the best you can hope for is a small following on a forum or two, producing just enough sales to keep you busy on weekends, and thet would take a lot of admin and marketing time and energy from you, aside from all the development, manufacturing, distribution etc etc etc. its not a real business opportunity and although you dont invest a large amount of capital, so you wont take too big a risk, there is a real danger that you'll waste a lot of time.
if a 5 minute brainstorm paints a picture this gloomy you really have to consider the probable outcome of taking on this venture. what can you gain? what can you lose? not a lot either way, so why not try anyway you may think? well consider it this way, why waste the time when you could use that time doing something with a much better chance of success and profit. if you want to do it purely for the passion and enjoyment then go for it, if you really want some money and you dont have the time to waste then it would be foolish to bother.
if you really want to try it then by all means give it your best. you learn more from your mistakes than your successes and i'm sure it will be a good learning experience. just dont lie in bed at night dreaming about how you'll spend all the millions you'll make. you have a better chance of making money cleaning windows (which is actually a very lucrative industry percentage wise)
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