General Homemade toe-in tool.

[murfman53]

Doing the front steering toe-in toe-out on some vehicles can be easy on some, and

not so easy on others. So, my father got thinking about it................and came up with

simple idea.

I noticed that my front tyres of the panda were wearing on the inside. We connected

up the homemade tool, one to each wheel, just to see what measurements we were

getting. There was a 10mm toe-in difference between the measurement at the front of the

wheel, and the rear wheel measurements. I reduced this figure down to 2mm of a

difference.

This a photo of the tool.



You can make the bottom horizontal bar longer if you wish.

I'll take the panda for a spin tomorrow and see how it feels.

Would anyone know the details for the toe-in toe-out measurements.

Thanks for looking.

John.

 

[tinmar49]

The toe in measurement is +_1mm, I set my multijet to about 1/2mm toe in, any toe out is likely to wear the insides of the tyres.

 

[tinmar49]

I have just converted that into an angle, plus or minus 13 minutes of arc. Your tool would have to be pretty good to resolve that.

 

[murfman53]

The toe in measurement is +_1mm, I set my multijet to about 1/2mm toe in, any toe out is likely to wear the insides of the tyres.

I was thinking much the same as you. Mine at 10mm toed in, I thought is excessive.

But someone who seen this device, said that when you jack up the car, and check the toe-in with this device geometry could be changed, hence the 10mm.

Bearing this in mind, on older classics, we used check the toe-in with the car on the floor, change the setting if needed, and roll the car forward one complete revolution,
and re-check toe-in. Of course this makes sense, as the car spends all its life on the road.................and not up on a lift!

Since posting this thread, I see that a good few pandas do wear their tyres on the inside.......................a common fault maybe.

Also seen an article suggesting that the electric power steering could have something to do with wear on inside of front tyres. Interesting point, if there is any merit to it.

Thanks for your information tinmar49.

John.

 

[ytareh]

Panda MJs definitely eat their tyres from the inside out .A potential safety issue if people don't have a good look along the full width of the tyre .I aquaplaned into the ditch once ( lucky no major harm done to me or car -in fact surprisingly tough -only needed bumper and radiator . I reckon monster flooding , over inflated tyres ( 34 psi -ish ) and inner wear , perhaps on rears also were contributing factors

 

[murfman53]

I have just converted that into an angle, plus or minus 13 minutes of arc. Your tool would have to be pretty good to resolve that.

That could be tricky already.

 

[murfman53]

Panda MJs definitely eat their tyres from the inside out .A potential safety issue if people don't have a good look along the full width of the tyre .I aquaplaned into the ditch once ( lucky no major harm done to me or car -in fact surprisingly tough -only needed bumper and radiator . I reckon monster flooding , over inflated tyres ( 34 psi -ish ) and inner wear , perhaps on rears also were contributing factors

I see where you are coming from alright. And then there is the weight of the multijets engine............considerably heavier than a petrol engine.

With wear on the inside of the tyre, what pressure does that put on the electric steering pump motor.................it cannot escape lightly, I would have thought.

I'll watch out for the aquaplaning.............alot of rain here at the moment.

John.

 

[notsmartcars]

For what it's worth I use a gunsons trakrite it's money well spent

 

[murfman53]

For what it's worth I use a gunsons trakrite it's money well spent

Don't know this item..........................must check it out now.

Thanks.

 

[murfman53]

Don't know this item..........................must check it out now.

Thanks.

Just looked at your link..............................nice device.........and not too expensive.

John.

 

[AB100]

I see where you are coming from alright. And then there is the weight of the multijets engine............considerably heavier than a petrol engine.

With wear on the inside of the tyre, what pressure does that put on the electric steering pump motor.................it cannot escape lightly, I would have thought.

I'll watch out for the aquaplaning.............alot of rain here at the moment.

John.

Personally I like plenty of grip. Even the 1.2 petrol can understeer in the wet on greasy roads with the 165 tyres - goodness knows what the 1.1 cars are like with 155s.


I've just stuck winter tyres on our 1.2, going from 165/65-14 summer to 195/50-15 winter. No noticeable effect on steering or road noise. Just plenty of grip (and that winter tyre squidge that you get above 7c).

 

[Sweetsixteen]

For what it's worth I use a gunsons trakrite it's money well spent

Ditto Gunsons Trackrite. Have used one for years, but only as a starting point. It's good, but not completely accurate. Long nylon rollers inside can give a false reading, even with the tiniest bit of grit, and the surface you use it on must be level across the front track, and spotlessly free of any grit or tiny debris.

After initial setting up with the Trackrite, I get under the car (driven up on ramps, so the normal load is still on the wheels - not a lot of point setting tracking with the load off the wheels, because you never drive a car in that condition!) and use a measure to check front-to-rear toe-in/out. Move the car ONE-HALF revolution of the wheels and do it again.

A fiddle, but worth it for accuracy.

 

[murfman53]

Hi Sweetsixteen,

Thanks for your reply, and what say makes a lot of sense. If you're doing the toe-in, the car needs to be touching the ground at all times. I'm going to try the method with the string, it takes alittle time to set up, but its fairly accurate according to one one guy on youtube, who then checked it with a laser after, and the setting was 100% accurate.
The string I have.................the Trackrite unfortunately don't.

Thanks for the tips.

John.

 

[billysally208]

Thanks for posting this - very interesting - the only comment I would add is don't you think it would be better to have the weight of the car supported on axle stands under the lower suspension arms, which would have the same effect as having it standing on the floor with the road wheels on. This would then remove any inaccuracies caused by the suspension with the hub just hanging/dangling in mid air and hopefully you could still adjust the tracking while in this posistion - not a critiscm just a thought.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Thanks for posting this - very interesting - the only comment I would add is don't you think it would be better to have the weight of the car supported on axle stands under the lower suspension arms, which would have the same effect as having it standing on the floor with the road wheels on. This would then remove any inaccuracies caused by the suspension with the hub just hanging/dangling in mid air and hopefully you could still adjust the tracking while in this posistion - not a critiscm just a thought.

Reckon that's just as good, as long as the road wheels are on. Tad more work, but makes for easier multi-point checking by moving the wheels round to different positions. Just need to make sure steering doesn't shift while you're doing it. Good time to double-check that there's no play in wheel bearings or suspension or else your tracking adjustments could be out.

 

[murfman53]

Thanks for posting this - very interesting - the only comment I would add is don't you think it would be better to have the weight of the car supported on axle stands under the lower suspension arms, which would have the same effect as having it standing on the floor with the road wheels on. This would then remove any inaccuracies caused by the suspension with the hub just hanging/dangling in mid air and hopefully you could still adjust the tracking while in this posistion - not a critiscm just a thought.

Hi billysally 208,

You're 100% on the button. Its probably the only and accurate way of achieving the best result.

No critiscm taken at all..............................speak your mind anytime.More input the better................................we all learn something new.

Thanks a million.

John.

 

[billysally208]

Reckon that's just as good, as long as the road wheels are on. Tad more work, but makes for easier multi-point checking by moving the wheels round to different positions. Just need to make sure steering doesn't shift while you're doing it. Good time to double-check that there's no play in wheel bearings or suspension or else your tracking adjustments could be out.

Why do you need the roadwheels on - you could move the wheel hubs - obviously you would have to remove and replace the gauges - although you are restricted in the number of positions you can fit the gauge I suppose.

 

[jrkitching]

I've done something similar, using a jig made out of bits of Meccano. You can make it out of practically anything, but it must be rigid.

My Panda was hopelessly out of alignment when delivered new from the factory. Factory setting is 1mm toe-in, plus/minus 1mm, but I've found from experience that tyre wear issues disappear if you track the car dead parallel with the weight on the wheels, which has the additional advantage of being very easy to jig.

You won't get the same accuracy with the car on ramps or stands - it has to be standing on level ground, wheels straight ahead and brakes off, wheels correctly fittted and torqued. You measure between front & back inner edges of the wheel rims at mid-height; obviously any jig has to be able to fit around the bits of suspension that are in the way. Before you start, check the wheels run true and that there's no excessive play in the suspension; if there is, it's impossible to track the car properly and the issues must be dealt with first.

Fortunately there's just enough ground clearance and access to get underneath the car without lifting it, though you might want to chock the rear wheels for safety.

I did temporarily put the car on stands to loosen off the adjustment threads and grease them, so that everything turned easily later.

I've covered 60,000 miles since setting it up and front tyre wear has been completely even.

The rears are a different story since the Panda rear subframe seems to be manufactured to very wide tolerances and it's the luck of the draw as to whether you get a straight one; there's nothing that can easily be adjusted. Uneven rear tyre wear is also a very common issue.

Oh, and I played with one of those Gunsons gadgets many years ago; I tried using it on lots of different surfaces, but couldn't ever get two consistent readings in a row. I ended up taking it back for a refund; IMO it was worse than useless.

I've never tried one, but this gadget looks interesting for anyone wanting to experiment.

I'm a great fan of DIY tracking, at least for simple cars; if you work carefully and with due thought to what you are trying to achieve, you can get a good result using only modest equipment. Conversely, hamfisted use of even the most sophisticated tools will leave the tracking hopelessly out; I know of many garages which provide such a service, at various prices.

 

[tinmar49]

First, the wheels must run true, or you're wasting your time. The tracking is done with the car on it's wheels, on smooth, level surface, drive slowly straight forward and stop with the handbrake, get out and press down on each wing in turn to settle the car down. The alignment gear rests on the edges of the rims about halfway up, not the tyres. I use the Gunson Trackrite laser alignment tool, which with practice is quite accurate. As I said before, I set the wheels for toe in about 1/2mm or 7 minutes. My car wears it's tyres down evenly with this setting.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

You won't get the same accuracy with the car on ramps or stands - it has to be standing on level ground

I've never tried one, but this gadget looks interesting for anyone wanting to experiment.

I'm wondering what the basis for the above comment about non-use of ramps may be?

That Trackace seems a terrific gadget, with potential excellent accuracy. Again though, the wheels need to rotate through half a revolution and the measurements made twice before such accuracy can be guaranteed. Very tempted to get one, but as tracking my vehicles is rarely done, it's not really worth the cost - I have had sound results over the years with the tools I've got, and a bit of applied common sense, like JR.