Just go with a standard cento box 
. That's what i be using in my 1.4 16v, might have a LSD fitted too .
Ming
. That's what i be using in my 1.4 16v, might have a LSD fitted too .Ming
Technical Help with my planning of a 1.4 16v conversion
- Thread starter trogdor
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Technical Help with my planning of a 1.4 16v conversion
You'll probably find that there's an eager buyer for the Abarth box and wheels anyway.
Final drives are given as 15/58 for the Sporting, 14/57 for the Abarth. Top gear looks to be a little shorter, too.
Final drives are given as 15/58 for the Sporting, 14/57 for the Abarth. Top gear looks to be a little shorter, too.
Just go with a standard cento box
Ming
Needs to be a Sei box for a Sei though unless you fancy changing half the casing over (doable but it's not much fun). The sei one is closer to the punto but the linkage bit is different. Easiest option is to get a box from the same model of car. Standard gearing will definitely be better than the Abarth box with your planned mods though.
Will the stilo box be a good match? I think they are 6 speed? I will need to limit my steering to fit a six speed box?
Can you get lsd's for the stilo gearbox?
The more i read about the micro ecu the more i get put off using it! Microsquirt might be best way forward, its not significantly more expensive than the det3
If my coil drivers on the micro ecu fail then i would need another? How easy are they to come by? I think the schumacher has a specific ecu? M7 or something?
Does the technical manual contain a ecu pinout for the microecu? Its quite difficult navigate!
Cheers for the help everyone?
Can you get lsd's for the stilo gearbox?
The more i read about the micro ecu the more i get put off using it! Microsquirt might be best way forward, its not significantly more expensive than the det3
If my coil drivers on the micro ecu fail then i would need another? How easy are they to come by? I think the schumacher has a specific ecu? M7 or something?
Does the technical manual contain a ecu pinout for the microecu? Its quite difficult navigate!
Cheers for the help everyone?
Ah,
Have been researching microsquirt, and there is an issue with it. I knew there was a reason why i didnt plan on using it in the past.
It has no ignition drivers, so would need to wire up an edis wasted spark module or something similar.
Its a shame as it looks really neat. But the det 3 looks like a front runner now.
Have been researching microsquirt, and there is an issue with it. I knew there was a reason why i didnt plan on using it in the past.
It has no ignition drivers, so would need to wire up an edis wasted spark module or something similar.
Its a shame as it looks really neat. But the det 3 looks like a front runner now.
You will need lock stops. Craig posted a how to measure what you need thingy in the Guides -- Craig or Tom (Brooky) will be able to make them up, or just about anyone with a lathe. Aluminium or Nylon bar are good choices for materials.
I've yet to do a 6 speed conversion, but from what I've heard, it's really no biggie.
The dry shaft Cinq and Sei Sporting boxes differ from the others in that:
Everything else has a hydraulic clutch so you either need to convert the Cento to a hydraulic clutch (I think Peter of GSR has done this) or, the most common route, use the Cento clutch arm and shaft.
Non Cento cars all use a rod/arm type selector mechanism rather than the cable one. So, swap the selector mechanism over -- it's only 4 bolts, IIRC. All the other lugs should be there ready to take the cable support bracket from the Cento box.
The speedo drive should be either a straight swap or compatable.
The Stilo box certainly uses different cups. These can be swapped (but do it one at a time, or you'll see the diff slowly sinking to the bottom of the differential housing!) for the Cento ones.
If you end up using a Punto box, be aware that some eedjut under specified the gearbox input shaft bearing, so replace as a matter of course together with the seal. There's a guide in the Punto section. No biggie -- the bearings and seals are a common size.
Team Lloyd (J333EVO, foxyemz and Jon) have done two of these, and didn't flag the 6 speed gearbox as an issue. They don't keep secrets, so I suspect there are no major issues.
Don't forget that if you are using 15" wheels, the gearing will be raised a fair bit. Worthwhile doing some calculations as to what the revs will be for a wheel revolution (find out the circumference of the tyres).
Any details out there on the stand alone ECU Master? I checked the site, but can't find owt.
I've yet to do a 6 speed conversion, but from what I've heard, it's really no biggie.
The dry shaft Cinq and Sei Sporting boxes differ from the others in that:
Everything else has a hydraulic clutch so you either need to convert the Cento to a hydraulic clutch (I think Peter of GSR has done this) or, the most common route, use the Cento clutch arm and shaft.
Non Cento cars all use a rod/arm type selector mechanism rather than the cable one. So, swap the selector mechanism over -- it's only 4 bolts, IIRC. All the other lugs should be there ready to take the cable support bracket from the Cento box.
The speedo drive should be either a straight swap or compatable.
The Stilo box certainly uses different cups. These can be swapped (but do it one at a time, or you'll see the diff slowly sinking to the bottom of the differential housing!) for the Cento ones.
If you end up using a Punto box, be aware that some eedjut under specified the gearbox input shaft bearing, so replace as a matter of course together with the seal. There's a guide in the Punto section. No biggie -- the bearings and seals are a common size.
Team Lloyd (J333EVO, foxyemz and Jon) have done two of these, and didn't flag the 6 speed gearbox as an issue. They don't keep secrets, so I suspect there are no major issues.
Don't forget that if you are using 15" wheels, the gearing will be raised a fair bit. Worthwhile doing some calculations as to what the revs will be for a wheel revolution (find out the circumference of the tyres).
Any details out there on the stand alone ECU Master? I checked the site, but can't find owt.
Manuals/brochures are here including an English one (hooray):
http://www.ecumaster.com/download/EMU/
And TEP have them in stock:
http://www.topendpower.pl/p/en/ecu-m-emu/emu+-+engine+management+unit+-+stand+alone.html
It's not what I'd call cheap but you get a lot for your money, that Canems you have seems good value too Fingers and also seems to be the only one that fully supports staged (not sequential) injection in its price range.
The micro ecu drivers are a known issue partly because of where the ECU is mounted in some cars, but also because the unit uses SMD (surface mount devices) electronics which are less robust than their through hole counterparts. It is said you can even damage one of these ECU's by running it with a coil pack disconected. The pin out the for this ECU is also in the Sei manual somewhere. It may require a pair of resistors to avoid its limp mode which could cut ignition, however this is simple. The point is you may have to end up buying a replacement if it fails, at this point you won't be far off the price of a standalone. It may be fine forever but...
Standalone is the way I'd go with the micro ECU. Might/should be possible to replace with the super tough post 2002(?) Sei ECU, but probably isn't worth it unless you can pick it up very cheap. IIRC, Brooky got the DIY Megasquirt kit from the States for anout £200.
The 6-speed box conversion is just as fingers99 describes above and is a piece of cake. Use the Cento cable clutch arm. Speedo cable is compatible, and the 6-speed box may well have an un-used drive gear in place already.
My 16v with Stilo 6-speed is on 195/45R14 tyres and the speedo over-reads by approx 5% I think.
My 16v with Stilo 6-speed is on 195/45R14 tyres and the speedo over-reads by approx 5% I think.
Hi everyone,
Once again, thanks for the replies!
I have been working out costs of the microsquirt and its 290.00 for it. Plus 50.00 for the wasted spark dual channel spark igniter. With all the bits i need in addition its prob gonna cost 400.00 for it.
Plus 400.00 for the donor stilo, thats 800.00 so far. Not too bad but ideally i want it lower than this as i would like to do it for 1000.00 (not fixed) if possible.
Anyway is it possible to use the det 3 and have it fire spark igniters? Rather than use the micro ecu ones? Maybe its possible to wire them to the micro ecu? What happens when the igniters on the micro ecu fail? Ecu completely dead?
I guess thats mostly aimed at honeymonster!
Thanks everyone!
Once again, thanks for the replies!
I have been working out costs of the microsquirt and its 290.00 for it. Plus 50.00 for the wasted spark dual channel spark igniter. With all the bits i need in addition its prob gonna cost 400.00 for it.
Plus 400.00 for the donor stilo, thats 800.00 so far. Not too bad but ideally i want it lower than this as i would like to do it for 1000.00 (not fixed) if possible.
Anyway is it possible to use the det 3 and have it fire spark igniters? Rather than use the micro ecu ones? Maybe its possible to wire them to the micro ecu? What happens when the igniters on the micro ecu fail? Ecu completely dead?
I guess thats mostly aimed at honeymonster!
Thanks everyone!
In all it's various modes the DET3 still utilises the original ignition system and acts as an interceptor. What I mean by this is the crank sensor goes to the DET3 and the DET3 goes to the original ECU input. The DET3 lies to the original ECU about the position of the crank therefore allowing you to move the spark timing about as you desire. It might sound complex but it's actually fairly simple and works very well. We are fortunate with the type of crank sensor our engines use as it means this operates very effectively with no issues. The fueling can work in a similar manor by receiving the original ECU output, then altering it and sending it to the injectors, or in full standalone mode (Fuel Implant Technology) where the existing system is completely redundant and the DET3 works as a standalone for fueling. I'm using the later as it provides complete control. There are various other modes not worth discussing here. By keeping the original ECU operational things such as idle control continue to operate as do any other ancillary systems operated or requiring communication from the ECU.
But... this means the whole ignition system from the original ECU is utilised and completely required.
If the original ECU is made of gold the DET3 will polish it, if the original ECU is made of turd it wont look shiny for long.
But... this means the whole ignition system from the original ECU is utilised and completely required.
If the original ECU is made of gold the DET3 will polish it, if the original ECU is made of turd it wont look shiny for long.
Hi,
Ah if only my fiat was newer! So the micro ecu is going to be a liability then i guess its not worth bothering with! I am guessing a later mpi ecu like yours isnt an easy swap?
Following the guide of fitting a 1.4, the punto ecu and wiring loom from the 1.2 16v is ultilised.
Will a mk2 punto sporting be suitable? As i thought these had a throttle by wire?
Argh its so easy and so difficult at the same time! Am off to have a look at the canems ecu.
Thanks everyone!
Ah if only my fiat was newer! So the micro ecu is going to be a liability then i guess its not worth bothering with! I am guessing a later mpi ecu like yours isnt an easy swap?
Following the guide of fitting a 1.4, the punto ecu and wiring loom from the 1.2 16v is ultilised.
Will a mk2 punto sporting be suitable? As i thought these had a throttle by wire?
Argh its so easy and so difficult at the same time! Am off to have a look at the canems ecu.
Thanks everyone!
I have an SPI ECU which are known to be relatively trouble free and cheap/easy to get hold of. Since I'm using the outputs of the DET3 to control fueling it makes no difference whether the original ecu is SPI or MPI, in fact if you're running batch injection it makes little difference which ECU mode you run, pulse adjustment is the key.
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Oooh an spi ecu would be good as i have a cable/software to access that ecu read error codes etc.
Would an spi ecu go into limp home mode tho if conected to an 1.4 engine?
Its annoying as i had an spi seicento until fairly recently! I would only need the ecu and loom? Should be cheap enough to find.
Are the sensors the same as mpi? Am guessing the coolant sensor is ok and crank sensor but map tps and iat are different?
Thanks for the help!
Would an spi ecu go into limp home mode tho if conected to an 1.4 engine?
Its annoying as i had an spi seicento until fairly recently! I would only need the ecu and loom? Should be cheap enough to find.
Are the sensors the same as mpi? Am guessing the coolant sensor is ok and crank sensor but map tps and iat are different?
Thanks for the help!
Can't see why the engine has the same configaration, just a larger capacity and better airflow. It won't be in charge of fueling so you can either leave the lambda disconected, or it would probably be fine if you used the DET3 narrow band correction as it would only see the correct mixture during closed loop operation.
No idea I've never owned the 16v engine. Providing the sensor specifications are the same or very close they should cause no issues. You should be able to check this by looking up the Fiat part numbers and cross refferencing them if neccessary. I'd use as many of the sensors from the 1.1 as possible though to save frustration. With the real time monitoring of the DET and a code reader for the original ECU you could see if anything was a miss.
woj might be able to enlighten us a bit more, but one of the original TJet Sei links he posted actually used one of the old style ECU's and a DET3 which shows this shouldn't pose any major issues. I have no idea which of the old style ECU's this was though. Could haver been an MPI 75 ECU or something completely different, maybe he will know.
This still seems an aweful lot of work when you could fit a standalone...
Like you said, shame you got rid of the Spi Sei...
Yes is a shame, but needed the money!
Yup its getting to the point where i may as well fit a stand alone. I was looking at the microsquirt and it looks like it can drive two coils ok with out an external driver. There is some contradiction.
I think i may be going to use a mk1 punto sporting as a donor as that will have everything i need to get started. I can then upgrade engine, add det 3 and fit a 1.4 when i want.
But if i can save enough i may go for the microsquirt. Does anyone have a map as a suitable starting point? Cheeky i know!
Thanks for help, would be very lost otherwise!
Yup its getting to the point where i may as well fit a stand alone. I was looking at the microsquirt and it looks like it can drive two coils ok with out an external driver. There is some contradiction.
I think i may be going to use a mk1 punto sporting as a donor as that will have everything i need to get started. I can then upgrade engine, add det 3 and fit a 1.4 when i want.
But if i can save enough i may go for the microsquirt. Does anyone have a map as a suitable starting point? Cheeky i know!
Thanks for help, would be very lost otherwise!
Kripit did have one, maybe Todger?
The setup you are mentioning was running DET on top of P75 ECU IAW 8F. In fact I think any engine transplant into newer MPI Sei in PL goes in pair with rewireing the harness and putting an older generation IAW ECU, either 8/18F or 18FD depending on the engine that is dropped in. Nobody seems to want to keep these newer generation ECUs, I think they are a bit more histeric (about needing two lambdas and a cat converter in particular).
Good info.
Hi again,
I have been doing some research and have decided to go with a standalone system. Do it once do it right etc.
The microsquirt looks the best. I think I can even mount it under the bonnet. It should be pretty easy to wire up as I can cut off the plugs on my microecu and wire it in to the microsquirt.
However there are a few issues, the microsquirt doesn't support stepper motor idle control. Which I think is what controls the 1.4 engine? I know that's the case with the spi engine and I assume the mpi engine.
This is not the end of the world as I can use a third party pwm valve (ford I think) which will work ok, just need to plumb it either side of the throttle.
I also think I can use the microsquirt to run my rad fan asame as the mpi ecu.
Does anyone have the ecu pinout for the microecu? I know it's in the downloads but the manual doesn't download properly on my phone or tablet.
Am still planning to use the 1.4 but it's harder to find a suitable donor! It's a shame the 1.6 doesn't fit!
I have been doing some research and have decided to go with a standalone system. Do it once do it right etc.
The microsquirt looks the best. I think I can even mount it under the bonnet. It should be pretty easy to wire up as I can cut off the plugs on my microecu and wire it in to the microsquirt.
However there are a few issues, the microsquirt doesn't support stepper motor idle control. Which I think is what controls the 1.4 engine? I know that's the case with the spi engine and I assume the mpi engine.
This is not the end of the world as I can use a third party pwm valve (ford I think) which will work ok, just need to plumb it either side of the throttle.
I also think I can use the microsquirt to run my rad fan asame as the mpi ecu.
Does anyone have the ecu pinout for the microecu? I know it's in the downloads but the manual doesn't download properly on my phone or tablet.
Am still planning to use the 1.4 but it's harder to find a suitable donor! It's a shame the 1.6 doesn't fit!
