Technical Help Renewing Braking System - Bleed ABS Module

[Bach1]

Hello everyone, my girlfriend has a 2008 FIAT 500 1.2 and the brake pedal is starting to become a bit spongy. Since she's going to be driving quite a bit in the next few months, I was planning in replacing the pads, discs, braking fluid and flexible hoses. After a bit of research, I found that I would need to bleed the ABS module in order to do the job properly. Would the MultiECUScan software be able to cycle the ABS module?

Coming from someone that only had non-ABS cars, these scan tools are quite foreign for me.

Thanks everyone!

 

[bugsymike]

Hello everyone, my girlfriend has a 2008 FIAT 500 1.2 and the brake pedal is starting to become a bit spongy. Since she's going to be driving quite a bit in the next few months, I was planning in replacing the pads, discs, braking fluid and flexible hoses. After a bit of research, I found that I would need to bleed the ABS module in order to do the job properly. Would the MultiECUScan software be able to cycle the ABS module?

Coming from someone that only had non-ABS cars, these scan tools are quite foreign for me.

Thanks everyone!

Try the Multiscan section of Forum for more response. I only use Linux so Multiscan doesn't work for me as Windows based.
I have bled many vehicles over the years some with ABS and no problems.
Online I found this:-
Can I manually bleed ABS module?


In general, whenever you are bleeding an ABS-equipped vehicle you can do so exactly as you would any other vehicle - stroke the pedal to pressurize the system, open a bleeder, close the same bleeder, and repeat. This does not change whether you are pressure-bleeding, vacuum-bleeding, or manual-bleeding.

 

[Ralf S.]

You will need the full licensed version of Multiscan. It holds the ABS valves open in turn so that you can get the air out (and "air in the ABS system" is a "thing"). The free version doesn't have this feature available.

Your pedal will otherwise feel fine until you start the car.

Failing that, for the likely cost, I would do the work, bleed the brakes "analogue" and then get a Fiat dealer to bleed the ABS. It's a nuisance to pay for something that seems simple.. but it does need the gear.

Air in the ABS system is quite rare though... it only really happens if you have to replace a hose that can't be pinched off elsewhere, and the fluid level falls to empty or it needs to be drained, so the consolation is that once you've done it, you may never have to do it again.


Ralf S.

 

[jackwhoo]

You should only ever need to use a computer to bleed the abs unit if a new unit empty of fluid is fitted.
So in your case renew the fluid as normal. Pay special attention do not allow the brake fluid reservoir to empty during bleed process.
If replacing flex hoses, do one at a time and bleed the brakes immediately after each hose change ,this is so you can monitor the feel of the pedal after each hose . Getting the pedal feel right after each hose means you don't do all the hoses in one go ending up with bad pedal feel an don't know where the fault is.

Long pedal travel rather than spongy pedal can be caused by non working rear shoe adjusters or handbrake cable excessively adjusted which stops the auto adjusters working.

I would suggest working checking front brakes first , getting them as you want them, Checking how they work on the road. Only then think about working on rear brakes.

Best wishes
Jack

 

[AndyRKett]

In general, whenever you are bleeding an ABS-equipped vehicle you can do so exactly as you would any other vehicle - stroke the pedal to pressurize the system, open a bleeder, close the same bleeder, and repeat. This does not change whether you are pressure-bleeding, vacuum-bleeding, or manual-bleeding.

This ^^^^^

Generally there is no mysterious or special procedures to bleeding an ABS equipped car.

The problem with the internet and googling things is there is always someone who will tell you there is some extra procedure or step you have to do.
99.9999999999999% of the time no one is using any special equipment or diagnostics kit to bleed brakes on ABS cars.

 

[bugsymike]

This ^^^^^

Generally there is no mysterious or special procedures to bleeding an ABS equipped car.

The problem with the internet and googling things is there is always someone who will tell you there is some extra procedure or step you have to do.
99.9999999999999% of the time no one is using any special equipment or diagnostics kit to bleed brakes on ABS cars.

As Andy says, personally I have never needed to do anything special when bleeding customers vehicles, ABS or otherwise.
Obviously if you let the reservoir run dry you only have yourself to blame.

 

[chris3234]

As other have said you only really need a scan tool if. A fresh abs module has been fitted that being said I carried out the drain and fill procedure on my Tipo when I last changed the fluid

 

[AndyRKett]

As other have said you only really need a scan tool if. A fresh abs module has been fitted that being said I carried out the drain and fill procedure on my Tipo when I last changed the fluid

I have never known anyone to drain the brake system? though I suppose if you're changing the ABS unit you would get a considerable amount of air in the system, Id still just pump the air through with the fluid as normal with bleeding the brakes.

The bigger need for MES would be to code in the new ABS unit so the car could talk to it.

 

[Caboz]

As stated before, you don't need to activate the bleeding function of the ABS.

I recommend that you bleed the brakes using a pressure bleeding machine. I just did it this week on mine because I had a leak on the rear brakes, now the pedal is great.

I use an ATE bleeding machine on all my cars that makes this job a breeze.

 

[chris3234]

I have never known anyone to drain the brake system? though I suppose if you're changing the ABS unit you would get a considerable amount of air in the system, Id still just pump the air through with the fluid as normal with bleeding the brakes.

The bigger need for MES would be to code in the new ABS unit so the car could talk to it.

The drain procedure is basically to the fluid in the abs valves rather then empty it of fluid

Its just what it's called on mes

 

[Bach1]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

I already ordered the parts and will see if they come by friday. Hopefully I will be able to install them by the weekend.

Regarding instruction manuals, I have the workshop manual that is great, but often requires me to have specialized tools to do a job.
Is the Haynes manual any good for the 500?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If just bleeding brakes where the master cylinder reservoir has not been allowed to empty then I've always just bled out using the normal pedal pumping (half stroke to avoid seal damage) or pressure/vacuum bleeder procedure. This doesn't allow fluid in the ABS module itself to be flushed but I don't believe there's any appreciable volume of fluid in the valve body so it'll have little effect in terms of contaminating the new fluid. Not so sure whether this old fluid will slowly leach into the system generally? Probably a good thing if it does as new fluid would be good for the module components.

I like the Haynes manuals in that they give you most of what you need to do general repairs and maintenance. I always buy one, if available, when a new vehicle joins the "family fleet". What they're not so good for are "serious" repairs. So if you're going to dismantle the gearbox or are trying to diagnose an electronic sensor/actuator you'll be disappointed. Absolutely indispensable for doing general service work, renewing brake pads/shoes and calipers/wheel cylinders, renewing shock absorbers, suspension arms/bushes, window winder mechanisms, etc, etc. In other words most of the stuff a competent driveway grease monkey might aspire to tackling. There are many special tools needed to work on modern vehicles, but the Haynes manuals are quite good at suggesting work arounds where practical.

 

[bugsymike]

As you say re Haynes manuals Jock, when they first came out they were more in depth re gearbox overhauls etc. Mind you most of the garages will not do that these days.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As you say re Haynes manuals Jock, when they first came out they were more in depth re gearbox overhauls etc. Mind you most of the garages will not do that these days.

Aye Mike, the old Haynes manuals were a different "animal" altogether. Detailed diagrams of gearboxes etc. Mind you back in those days you could do a gearbox with some really quite simple tools, nowadays there's some weird and wonderful special tools and an endless list of the parts which have to be renewed because they can only be used once. Can't be many workshops brave enough to take on the possible comebacks let alone that the labour probably makes it not viable before you start.

Engines are getting the same way too with some where, if you undo the bottom end, the crankcase distorts enough to put the mains out of line! I'm told one at least of the VAG engines where you have to buy a factory short block for this reason.

 

[chris3234]

Speaking of that I've heard reports that fords eco boost engine are very hard to rebuild to the point ford will only ever fit new engines and many garages have tried to rebuild them and had lots of issues

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The Ford eco boost family of engines does seem to have more problems than most - just try you tubing Eco Boost Problems for a bit of entertaining watching. However they are not alone. Used to be that a timing chain was preferable to a synchronous belt but you regularly hear of engines where the chain has had to be changed and, with a few exceptions, I'd far rather be doing a belt than a chain. Also, of course, belts don't really stretch like chains do so timing is more accurately maintained as the engine ages.

Just over the last few years, in the endless search for economy and suppression of emissions, we've seen some very small capacity engines being asked to produce power outputs which, for the given capacity, wouldn't have shamed a competition engine just a few years ago. It's a great credit to the designers that they are so driveable - although I have to say I prefer driving a larger capacity, probably port injected engine for it's better throttle response.

When you look in detail at these modern "wonders" they are invariably turbocharged which introduces a host of potential problems. Not only is replacing a turbo eye wateringly expensive but turbos bring their own problems like the problem of low speed pre-ignition - hardly surprising that piston and/or ring damage is a not unknown problem. (avoid large throttle openings at low revs to minimize the likelyhood of LSPI Here's quite a good video about it, although he gets a bit mixed up in places, talking about pistons and cylinders, and makes reference to historically larger capacity engines than we have here in the UK):



Direct injection of fuel into cylinders instead of the manifold, so, as the engine ages carbon builds up in the inlet ports and on the back of the inlet valves. Here's another video looking at some of the problems:



Then we have variable displacement oil pumps with internal moving parts to go wrong. Most modern engines now have hydraulic variator pulleys on at least one camshaft which also requires solenoid valves to control oil pressure to them and many have diverter flaps in their inlet manifolds. Of course, because it's turboe'd, we now have to have an electric vacuum pump to create vacuum for the brake servo, and what about "split" cooling systems with seperate coolant circulation to the head and block involving two thermostats! I'll just stop here before I sink into the depths of despair!

With all that in mind I think it likely that my days of keeping a car into it's old age are well and truly over and I'm already considering a replacement for my Ibiza which is now only in it's seventh year of life.

 

[bugsymike]

If only environmental regulations would permit the fitting of old simple running gear into a modern rust free vehicle, that way we could have easy to repair , cheap trouble free motoring. I know it is never going to happen, until that is we become a Third World Country.
Perhaps then we will see EVs propelled along by a bullock or horse. I did see a Prius advertised locally with issues, for £500 so they are going in that direction.

 

[DaveMcT]

The motor industry could have done us all a favour by going to electric transmissions similar to diesel-electric rail locomotives. No need for a differential and the motor can have it windings paired up giving two or three speed ranges. The engine runs at constant speed but a small battery would be better for town driving. It's what hybrids always should have been. Instead we got the crappy things with a motor-generator slapped on the side.