Heat Pumps, the great deception?

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Heat Pumps, the great deception?

Yes, I feel I would rather use any excess power from our solar than put it in the grid but whilst I have a 4.6kw battery to charge we do generate more than we use some days so by transfering to ASHP we would use more power each day in running it hence reducing our grid input, or we set it up that excess will heat our hot water tank.
 
Yes, I feel I would rather use any excess power from our solar than put it in the grid but whilst I have a 4.6kw battery to charge we do generate more than we use some days so by transfering to ASHP we would use more power each day in running it hence reducing our grid input, or we set it up that excess will heat our hot water tank.
A solar diverter tank is a great idea you can get some now with separate chambers so it can heat up say 40liters to 60c then extra power can heat up more of the rest of the tank
 
Looking out this morning, I'm guessing the output from my neighbours' solar panels may be somewhat reduced today, with them covered with snow. I doubt the pigeons nesting underneath them will flutter across the top to clear them.

The first set arrived 18 months or so ago. The pigeons arrived very soon after, and make a constant noise. Mildly irritating from across the street, must be hell for the people living under them. Another house, a few houses down has recently had solar panels fitted. More pigeons have moved in underneath those too.

Why is there not a wire fence around the bottom?
 
Looking out this morning, I'm guessing the output from my neighbours' solar panels may be somewhat reduced today, with them covered with snow. I doubt the pigeons nesting underneath them will flutter across the top to clear them.

The first set arrived 18 months or so ago. The pigeons arrived very soon after, and make a constant noise. Mildly irritating from across the street, must be hell for the people living under them. Another house, a few houses down has recently had solar panels fitted. More pigeons have moved in underneath those too.

Why is there not a wire fence around the bottom?
Presumably to save the installer's a few 100 and couple of hours

That being said the built in panels set into the tiles look so much better,
 
There are two type of heat pump too, air and ground. Ground is said to be much more reliable since they rely on the sun heating the ground, but they need a large area to be effective, plus digging you your garden.
Heat pumps are only good for modern well design houses, old houses just wont get warm enough.

The heat pumps are progressing too, most pure electric cars use heatpumps, just the aircon in reverse.
Ground sources heat pumps harvest the heat from the ground which is there naturally all the time. You only need to dig down a few feet in winter or in summer to find the earth is a nice even 4 - 5C This makes for a fairly resilient system that is not significantly affected by the weather. Many people are now opting to dig a vertical bore hole and lay the pipes upright, this makes them even more resilient the deeper you go and is not reliant on having a big garden.

The air source heat pumps use heat in the air in a similar way to running air con in reverse heating the inside of the house and cooling the outside. These have the unfortunate issue with being less economical and least efficient the colder the outside temperatures. In the UK we don't see massive changes in temperature, but in the US they are releasing and working on much better systems designed to work down to -30C for outside temperatures, and still be efficient.

Many systems you can opt to upgrade and have protection fitted at installation time, false economy not having it.
I see a lot of the newly installed systems on new houses are fitted flat to the roof. some of the panels that sit away from the roof are double sided and actually generate some power from any light reflecting up or getting under the panels, obviously you don't get much power from that but it makes each panel a little bit more efficient for it's size.
 
Ground sources heat pumps harvest the heat from the ground which is there naturally all the time. You only need to dig down a few feet in winter or in summer to find the earth is a nice even 4 - 5C This makes for a fairly resilient system that is not significantly affected by the weather. Many people are now opting to dig a vertical bore hole and lay the pipes upright, this makes them even more resilient the deeper you go and is not reliant on having a big garden.
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I had read it was the solar effect that 'recharged' the soil during the day, hence why they shouldn't be too deep. If you take the energy out the surrounding soil then it needs to be restored from either surround soil or from the sun. Deeper vertical bores will heavily rely on soil thremal conductivitey and have no solar effect.
 
There are lots of innovative solutions to warming your home, but most of them take so long to recoup the initial investment that the chances are you will have died or sold the house and moved elsewhere before gaining the benefits.
Such solutions need to seriously fall in price and prove themselves reliable long term before I would consider them.
I would say though that all homes currently being built should be as heat efficient as possible. There is no way older properties are ever going to achieve that without massive investment and quick profit "cavity wall companies" using Government grants, now causing damp and mould issues shows the "experts" don't always get it right.
 
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I had read it was the solar effect that 'recharged' the soil during the day, hence why they shouldn't be too deep. If you take the energy out the surrounding soil then it needs to be restored from either surround soil or from the sun. Deeper vertical bores will heavily rely on soil thremal conductivitey and have no solar effect.
You’re right about the solar effect providing the heat, geothermal doesn‘t have much effect until you go much deeper.
In summer the soil temperature rises so as you go deeper then the soil / ground temperature becomes fairly constant at an average of summer and winter temperatures as it stores the heat. At around 2 metres you can normally work on something around 8 degrees so setting the pipes in deeper doesn‘t really matter, in fact it’s probably an advantage as there is a huge heat sink of soil warmed mainly by the summer sun.
For the borehole systems temperatures increase in the order of 1 deg per 50 metres of depth so deeper is also better for a borehole.
 
Hi All.

I work independently in double Glazing industry installing directly into homes. So I have experience hands on within many houses. My bug bear is Mould which is very often caused by reducing ventilation. Mould behind cupboards is often due to stuff being stuffed and left tight upto walls.

Condensation in homes is caused by the home owner!!!!. If its damp in your home ventilate, if you get mould its because your not ventilating enough. Wiping down the water from damp windows with a cloth and then drying that cloth on a radiator within the house is a common BIG mistake,

I get it when in rental properties most tenants are in them for thier first home on thier own or with a partner, as heating is so expensive no one wants to open a window or put a tumble dryer on. So most drying is done within the home. Effectively without opening the window you may as well just pour 2 or 3 litres of water on the floor.

Unless we know the moisture content within a home we can't tell when to ventilate so I now have a moisture monitoring display with sensors about the home. No home should really be higher than 65% moisture.

There are simple steps and procedures usable to massively reduce the issues rather than blame local councils.

Tim
 

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A terrace full of mini coopers.. :eek:

I dont think its any louder than an aircon unit.. and probably requires similar siting.

My issues would be getting permissions.. plenty of places cannot have sky dishes.. nevermind a big fan.assisted block hanging from the building
We live in a conservation area where the county council, local council, the parish council and the National Park all have a say in our planning…can we have a wind turbine like other farms have, NO, can we have solar panels on the barn (the side that faces into the sun, cannot be seen by overlooking houses or the Park) NO…can the ‘offcomers’ who have lived in village for three months submit planning to have the church bells stop after 10pm (there’s been a church there since before 1100) yes AND we Will seriously consider it and can they replace their barn conversion windows to upvc, yes, so long as its the same style (but bright white)
 
There are so many coloured windows available from grained offwhite/ cream/ black and a whole load of RAL coloures, I guess we can all chose where we live
 
My 14 solar panels are on my garage and carport and are mounted nearly flat and get 3000kwh per year. hardly visible from any direction and they are on a black rubber roof.
 
Hi All.

I work independently in double Glazing industry installing directly into homes. So I have experience hands on within many houses. My bug bear is Mould which is very often caused by reducing ventilation. Mould behind cupboards is often due to stuff being stuffed and left tight upto walls.

Condensation in homes is caused by the home owner!!!!. If its damp in your home ventilate, if you get mould its because your not ventilating enough. Wiping down the water from damp windows with a cloth and then drying that cloth on a radiator within the house is a common BIG mistake,

I get it when in rental properties most tenants are in them for thier first home on thier own or with a partner, as heating is so expensive no one wants to open a window or put a tumble dryer on. So most drying is done within the home. Effectively without opening the window you may as well just pour 2 or 3 litres of water on the floor.

Unless we know the moisture content within a home we can't tell when to ventilate so I now have a moisture monitoring display with sensors about the home. No home should really be higher than 65% moisture.

There are simple steps and procedures usable to massively reduce the issues rather than blame local councils.

Tim
What has annoyed me on occasions are when the watchdog type programs get hold a problem like this. As you say a lot of people could do things to improve their situation.
We are currently sitting in 20.5 degC with an RH ( relative humidity) of 46%. We’ve not got a monitoring system but just an electronic thermometer / humidity sensor but it’s always interesting to move it around to different rooms.
We never suffer from damp in our 1950 bungalow / house and I’m sure our Rayburn and wood burner help with the increased ventilation and air movement. At the start of the winter we were waiting for our Rayburn to return after a colour change and the RH was often in the 60s. We actually had to use our oil central heating which was bit of a shock. Luckily I had filled our tank a while before so didn’t need any but I saw oil prices being advertised at close to £1 / ltr so I can sympathise with anyone who relies on oil for their heat.
 
I get it when in rental properties most tenants are in them for thier first home on thier own or with a partner, as heating is so expensive no one wants to open a window or put a tumble dryer on. So most drying is done within the home. Effectively without opening the window you may as well just pour 2 or 3 litres of water on the floor.
Amen to this. Our youngest son's university digs are dripping with damp and mould and it's because they don't understand the need for ventilation and can't afford the heating. Over Christmas we delivered them Jack the Deehumidifier to get it slightly under control but it is an uphill battle with seven people using showers, cooking and drying clothes.

As an aside we've had a lot of condensation issues in our loft and reading about it online it's clear that it's a condensation/temperature issue as the extra thick loft insulation means it is very cold in there and the uPVC soffits and fascia boards have no vent holes in them to allow circulation of air. It wasn't helped by one of the shower extractor fan's vent pipes coming loose. It's sorted now but I now have a humidity monitor up there logging readings so I can check them online so we don't end up with the ceiling on our heads one night!
 
Poor property design in the 70s didn't help, daughters house too cold in winter, too hot in summer, half tiled outside walls on lathes, small air gap then plastered interior walls to rooms, no chimneys,open plan design, some previous owner has put cavity foam in the end wall, so no chance of easily removing that. Mould in the bedrooms, though improving after I put some vents in and got the soffit vents done as well. Their combi boiler was brand new just before they bought the house four years ago and they have had more go wrong on it in that time than my old conventional simple gas central heating boiler in 35 years!
Mind you I didn't cheer them up very much when I told them a mechanic I knew had bought one of the better houses at the top of the road new in the 1970s for £5000. ;)
 
I had read it was the solar effect that 'recharged' the soil during the day, hence why they shouldn't be too deep. If you take the energy out the surrounding soil then it needs to be restored from either surround soil or from the sun. Deeper vertical bores will heavily rely on soil thremal conductivitey and have no solar effect.
If that was true then countrys with long snow cover would get almost no heat into the soil through the winter as the snow would reflect most of the sunlight
 
I had read it was the solar effect that 'recharged' the soil during the day, hence why they shouldn't be too deep. If you take the energy out the surrounding soil then it needs to be restored from either surround soil or from the sun. Deeper vertical bores will heavily rely on soil thremal conductivitey and have no solar effect.
Think about going to the beech on a hot summer's day. Yes the sand will be hot on the surface but dig less than a foot down and sand quickly becomes cold. Soil is the same, dig down a foot or two and you'll find the temperature is much colder. This soil temperature a few feet down doesn't change much, in the height of summer or the middle of winter the temperature of the soil only a short distance from the surface remains largely the same temperature.

If the Sun warming the soil was how these system's worked then they would be terrible in the winter when you want them to work and brilliant at heating your house in the summer when you don't want them. Also these systems can work in reverse to cool your house in the summer, so you don't want to be trying to expel heat energy from the house into hot earth on warm summer's days.

These systems work like air-conditioning. They use a compressor to compress a liquid or gas, when you compress liquids and gasses they get hotter and increase in pressure. When you drop the pressure, you loose heat. So the compressor pushed the compressed hot fluid into the house. It then radiates the thermal energy into the house and looses pressure. The now cold fluid runs into the ground, heated buy ground temperature, to return to a normal temp, then the compressor warms it up again.

In a car air conditioning system the "house" would be the condenser under the bonnet, and the ground outside would be the evaporator in the cabin. condenser gets hot, cabin gets cold.

It doesn't matter how deep you go with the pipes because its the constant temperature you want. If the system was reliant in anyway from the heat of the sun then it wouldn't work at all on an over cast day or in the middle of the winter when the ground is frozen or covered in snow.
The pipes laid out across the garden is "easier" because you don't need a hole boring machine and ground survey to install the system, just bury the pipes a few feet down and be done with it. But it takes up far less space to just drill a vertical hole into the ground and fit all your pipes in a small patch of ground which is much better for modern houses with small gardens.

Looking at research papers the average 1m temperature for soil is 8.8'C in the north of Scotland and 12.7'c in the south of England.

Now answer this. If there is snow on the ground and puddles are literally frozen over with an air temperature of say -3'C then how can the sun be heating the earth below that to 12'C ?

You’re right about the solar effect providing the heat, geothermal doesn‘t have much effect until you go much deeper.
In summer the soil temperature rises so as you go deeper then the soil / ground temperature becomes fairly constant at an average of summer and winter temperatures as it stores the heat. At around 2 metres you can normally work on something around 8 degrees so setting the pipes in deeper doesn‘t really matter, in fact it’s probably an advantage as there is a huge heat sink of soil warmed mainly by the summer sun.
For the borehole systems temperatures increase in the order of 1 deg per 50 metres of depth so deeper is also better for a borehole.
This has nothing to do with Geothermal energy in terms of extreme depth and pressures leading to "geothermal energy" we're not dealing with Magma, but the earth is hot and it does not need the sun to stay hot. stick a temperature probe into the ground in a densely covered forest on a cold day and you'll still find a meter or two down that ~10'c temperature. In fact you have literally confirmed exactly my point in your post !!

So sorry but the sun has nothing to do with how a ground source heat pump works. Air source heat pumps as per the name suggests are much more susceptible to changes in the heat of the air caused by the heat of the sun and for that very reason, they are horribly inefficient and expensive to run.
Think driving around in your car with your windows open in the winter and running the aircon, that will give you some idea of how efficient an air source heat pump is.
 
My bug bear is Mould which is very often caused by reducing ventilation. Mould behind cupboards is often due to stuff being stuffed and left tight upto walls.

Condensation in homes is caused by the home owner!!!!. If its damp in your home ventilate, if you get mould its because your not ventilating enough. Wiping down the water from damp windows with a cloth and then drying that cloth on a radiator within the house is a common BIG mistake,

I get it when in rental properties most tenants are in them for thier first home on thier own or with a partner, as heating is so expensive no one wants to open a window or put a tumble dryer on. So most drying is done within the home. Effectively without opening the window you may as well just pour 2 or 3 litres of water on the floor.

Unless we know the moisture content within a home we can't tell when to ventilate so I now have a moisture monitoring display with sensors about the home. No home should really be higher than 65% moisture.
I like this post a lot, the science behind this is simple. Hot air can hold more water. In the summer the sun comes out warms up all the lakes and rivers and water is easily taken up into the air. Over night the air cools down again and reaches it's "Dew Point" which then deposits the excess water as dew on the ground.

So at 20'C 1 cubic meter of air can hold 17.3grams of water. Air on a cold winters day at 0'C can only hold 4.9 grams of water per cubic meter.

People heat their houses up with their windows shut and all that stagnant warm air is then able to absorb all the moisture from clothes drying, showers running and kettles and cooking with boiling water. Then over night the air cools and dumps all the excess water down the walls. The house isn't "damp" the air is. and exactly as you say its the owners that make it damp. Ironically the air outside is nice and dry and if those people opened a window and let the cooler air in they would have less damp.

But most people look out the window on a cold day and see all the dew on the ground and think it is a "damp" day won't open the window thinking they are letting damp air in and will make their damp problems worse.
 
Isn't there something about the temperature down a mine is fairly constant? "after 50ft, temp of the earth is 50F, and raises one degree F every 60ft"
Going back to air heat pump efficiency, as I understand it most home owners have to go for larger radiators due to the low temp compared with gas central heating, throw in the initial costs and paying for the electricity to run it as well, whilst I like the theory, if I had been outside working all day I found it good to kick off some clothes and relax in a warm home with a smokeless coal fire and gas central heating. The fire also warmed the chimney breast in the bedroom above and ventilation/airflow for the fire kept the house dry also, not humid. I remember as a kid delivering newspaper and some of the houses in those days used paraffin fires for their heat, the windows were all steamed up and the smell came out of the letterbox, they probably all smoked Capstan Full Strength so no problem for the Government paying old age pensions as if they got to 68 that was a bonus.
As a child we just had a coal fire in the living room where we all stayed until bed time, in the morning the sash windows had ice on the inside and that was in sunny Torbay, so maybe there is something in global warming.
I forgot the Hovis and Ovaltine;)
 
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