Technical Headlights problem, not yer normal problem!!!

[Hisnibs]

My 2005 2.8jtd based mohome, has just developed a peculiar problem. If I try to use the elec window LHD, so left window, it won't go up or down, but it turns on the headlights!!!! The headlights won't come on on the stalk switch. BUT, the sidelights and main beam all work normally, it's just the headlights (dip beam). I replaced the window switch 3 months ago and the window was fine. Could it be the window motor? Seems odd to be connected to the headlight relay???
HELP please? Thanks
PS if anyone could direct me to a wiring diagram, please?

 

[Communicator]

Hi,

Owning a similar vehicle, I am intrigued. Both windows, and headlights are earth (negative) side switched. The only common point except for the wiring harness is the "switch control unit", but this unit must normally pass a switched negative for the headlamps, while switching power to the window switch LEDs when sidelights are ON.

When the fault symptoms are strange, it is wise to eliminate the possibility of faulty earth connections. The relevant earth points seem to be C015 for the steering column. From memory this is close to the smaller of the two near the ventilation/heater fan. The other relevant earth point is C020, and is located on the RH "A" pillar at the lower edge of the dashboard.

As a starter I am attaching some annoted files derived from eLearn, and a link to an online version of eLearn, but not all of the vehicle wiring diagrams can be read from this source.

http://4cardata.info/elearn/244/2/244000001/244000003

 

[Hisnibs]

Thanks Communicator. Could you please point me to the position of the Switch control unit and the Window and central locking unit? Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Given the absence of info relating to the switch control unit, an electronic "black box", I doubt that repair is possible, but do please prove me to be wrong in this belief.


The switch control unit is immediately behind the push buttons below the radio. For access remove document holder, radio, ashtray, and pull off rectangular knob on ventilation slider. Remove exposed screws.

I wondered why the dipped headlights control passes through the unit. From eLearn I have gleaned that dipped beams are switched off when fog lamps switched on. If no fog lamps, then is a direct connection possible????

The connection from the window switches to the switch control unit, is only for the LEDs in the switches. Do we use this facility?

I am not sure about the window / central locking module location, but when burrowing in the dash to tidily install cruise control wiring, I located another grey "black box", behind the glove box on my 2006 RHD. The connector(s)? did not correspond with eLearn, so beyond noting the wire colours, I did not invetigate further. I expect that this "black box" will contain relays for each window raise and lower, plus at least one each for central locking lock / unlock. I also expect it to contain cut off circuitry for the locks and windows.

A WARNING. I have used 4cardata for about two years until this morning, when it suddenly required a significant annual payment. I will revert to my DVD which cost about £4 from eBay. When copied onto my SSD as a virtual disc, it is quite fast. However the big attraction of the online info was the ability to use tabbed browsing.

 

[Hisnibs]

Communicator, thanks for the help. I have resolved the window problem, turns out the 7 month old window switch I'd replaced, had failed!!!! So, I've substituted the other door switch and woopee it works. I still have no dip beam headlights. Is there one relay to control this?? I've chosen to order a new indicator/ wiper stalk unit, as I think this maybe the fault.

 

[Communicator]

The OP has chosen to open a new thread for his headlamp problem.

This action will not help anyone who is able to assist so for continuity I have copied his latest post below.

"No dip beam, help please! Mot due in a week! I posted last week I was having issues with electric windows and dip beams. I have resolved the window, it was a faulty switch.
The lack of dip beams has me baffled. I've replaced the light switch stalk, checked the fuses and tested most of the 21 relays!!!! I still can't get the dip beam to work, main beam and side lights work. Bulbs are all good. I've wiggled all the connecting plugs behind the dash, by disconnecting and replacing them.
Someone please tell me there is a simple fix????? Thanks"


Hisnibs,


The simple answer is probably no. I previously posed the question about foglamps. So if you have foglamps make sure that they are switched OFF.


If no foglamps then you will have to do carry out, or pay for some fault finding. I have attached a circuit diagram to an earlier post, and suggested the "switch control panel" as a possible cause of your problem. I note that you have chosen to replace the steering column stalk, but without success.


Before you replace the colunm covers, I suggest that you apply an earth to pin 4 of connector B (grey wire). This should energise the dipped beams, when ignition is on, alternatively, but not as conclusive test for +12 V with a multimeter on the same wire. Given you statement above these checks will probably fail, but will make a good starting point.


Moving to the switch control unit H090, which is behind the push buttons, eLearn shows both connectors H090/A and H090/D as being 9 way connectors, with H090/D having pin numbering 10 to 18. (A bit strange?) Accepting this, poles A8 & D17 will be one in from the similar end of each connector. D17 has grey wire from switch and A8 has light blue wire with green stripe. This latter wire is the one which eventually connects to the dipped beam relay. Again an earth connection here plus ignition on, should switch your dipped beams on.


If further investigation is required, proceed in the same manner.

 

[Hisnibs]

Thanks Communicator. Is the 'switch control unit H090' basically the facia switches for fog, rear fog hazard etc? Also behind the lower panel there are three relays in a block, what are they for, any idea? Two red and a larger black one. The window and central locking control is behind the glove box, this seems ok.
The fog and rear fog aren't working either, hazzard and indicators are ok. The wiring diagrams from Fiat are confusing as they use so many letter coded items etc. All the earths I've located seem ok. Can you pinpoint one area where you'd expect all these faults to center from? Thanks

 

[Communicator]

Hi,

For the switch control unit (H090), turn your description around. Think of it as an electronic black box, with 5 switches attached. (The actual switches, but not the engraved buttons are always present.) The module incorporates the direction indicator / hazard flasher, plus other logic functions.

You mention having front foglights. Have you tried switching them off? Remember that headlights must be on, for front and rear foglights to work.

Unfortunately if attention to the above details does not bring any positive results, the common factor in external lighting circuits seems to be H090.

I will attach diagrams of foglights, and indicators, plus procedure for access to H090. As a minimum check seating of connectors, and note (photo) details of any part number.


If you download eLearn from the forum Downloads section, or purchase a DVD, it contains far more than wiring diagrams, but these diagrams do contain several errors. e.g. Dipped beams stay on when main beam selected, but not so according to diagram. From a diagram you can scroll down the component list. Clicking on component number gives table on connector pins, wire size and colour, destination of wire. regarding the alphabetical part of a component designation, it is consistent. A=Battery, B=Fusebox, C=Earth Point, D=Connector, F=Light Assembly,.... K=Sensor, M=Electronic controller, N=Actuator

 

[Hisnibs]

Thanks Communicator.
I can't find any faults, except the switch control panel. Can you or anyone in the group suggest where I may buy a new, or good second hand one, please? Part no 7353387620. I'm stuck in France, trying to prepare for MOT. Thanks
OK, PLEASE IGNORE THE REQUEST FOR A REPLACEMENT SWITCH UNIT.
I was able to convince my French neighbour to allow me to dismantle his heater control panel and presto mine worked on his van. SO it is chase the supply time WOOPPEE!
Update.... I only get 8.8v at the headlamp relay(switch side). I can make the dip beam work by removing the relay and bridging the large contacts. So the problem is from the fuse box to the cabin. As I said the switch control unit works on my neighbours van. New column switches, and steering lock/switch.
No evidence of mice etc.
Any help please????
Thanks

 

[rayc]

I would be checking the wattage of the bulbs again. The switch unit contains resetting switches that turn the supply to the lamp off if the current is not in correct range.

 

[Hisnibs]

Thanks, Rayc, but I've not changed the bulbs, they were working last week and I just had them working.

 

[Communicator]

I am pleased that you have been able to eliminate the switch control module, however I am having difficulty in accurately interpeting your statement.

"Update.... I only get 8.8v at the headlamp relay(switch side). I can make the dip beam work by removing the relay and bridging the large contacts. So the problem is from the fuse box to the cabin."

Please, where precisely are measuring the 8.8V? I deduce from the fact that shorting the relay contact socket makes the light work, you are reffering to the relay coil circuit, but by switch side do you mean ignition switch side (+ve), or column switch side (-ve) of relay coil???

The same +ve ignition switched supply to the engine bay fusebox terminal C30 is used for both headlamp beams, and other ignition controlled devices.

For reference the following text is a representation of the relay soccket connections as you see it with the relay removed. Please note that Fiat connect the relay coil in reverse polarity to the normal Bosch based convention. This is how the dipped beam relay coil is connected on my Ducato. I confirmed by testing yesterday.

(I have had to use dots instead of spaces to align characters.)

85.....86
+ve..-ve
....87....
....30....

 

[Hisnibs]

Hi C, thanks. Yes I shorted the 30/87 terminals. I'm getting 8.8v at 85/86 this on the relay in the engine bay T02. What are the other ignition controlled devices, please?
I guess fuel pump would be one, it works ok.
If I may, go back to the original problem? On our way to Spain for a few days, last week. I wanted to open the window, LHD moho, and it would not open. It started raining, so I turned on dip heads, as required here) I tried the window again and the dipped lights (dash light) went out. When I could stop I checked and the lights were out, side lights only. So I thought I'd use front spots/fog, they didn't work. I tried the window again and the dash light came on, in fact I could control the dip lights with the window switch. When we arrived at our destination, I could find nothing obvious so decided to leave it 'til we got home. Then the key wouldn't turn in the steering lock! Had to get recovered and a new lock fitted. (It never rains .....) Still no lights. Fitted a new window switch and the windows are fine now. Still no lights. Fitted a new steering switch unit, no change. Tried the switch control unit in another van and it worked.
Could the wiring loom have a problem? Causing the window switch to short the lights??? Whilst fiddling today I found the Hazzards not working and the dash lights out, both were fuses (previously checked) Before I set light to it has anyone got any suggestions PLEASE????

 

[Communicator]

Hi H,

As I have said on previous thread eLearn is not without errors, some of which a fairly obvious.
From various diagrams, it seems that the (key) code receiver and optional auto transmission share the supply to the headlamp relays. This is less than I originally thought to be the case.

If the code receiver fails to accept your key, the engine will not start. Consider yourself lucky that you do not have this problem, and check that you have the emergency key code card. (I did not receive this info.)

To narrow the search you could follow the following procedure.
1. Remove dipped beam relay.
2. Switch ignition ON.
3. Switch headlamps ON.
4. Measure between relay socket 85 (+ve) and chassis/earth. Do NOT use the M5 fuse cover bolts, as they are insulated.
5. Measure between relay socket 86 (-ve) and a live +12V point. If using the M6 fusebox stud, take care as it is protected by a 70A midi fuse on top of the battery, and you may not be able to buy one in a local store.

The above should show which side of the relay supply is faulty, but do be warned that modern multimeters are very sensitive, and can show a reasonable reading through a high resistance connection.

In answer to your final question, you could have a wiring loom problem, but I have no suggestions as to the location. The fact that you can could control the lights via the window switch, and the blown fuses points in that direction, but to keep an open mind I am wondering if the switch control module is missing some obscure input.

 

[Hisnibs]

Latest News.
I have no idea what was the root cause of this problem. It has mysteriously resolved it's self. I have all the lights etc. now working. I wiggled or took apart just about every connector. I still am baffled. I'm waiting for it to go wrong again now!!!
Thanks for all the help Communicator and fellow Fiat owners.

 

[Hisnibs]

Communicator, thanks for your input, it certainly helped! Can you please shed some light on a 'reset switch'? My neighbour arrived and reached into the engine bay to the bulkhead just behind the battery and pressed what he called a 'reset switch'. I can see a rubber coated plunger type switch and can't find any reference in Fiat literature about it. Are you able to shed some light please? Thanks.

 

[Communicator]

It is an inertia device, and is in the return (earth) connection for the electric fuel pump.

Basically consists of steel ball, held magnetically against pressure from a coil spring.

Edit.

Page 72 of my Fiat manual. Descibed as "Fuel Cutoff Switch".

 

[Nidirwatchman]

The OP has chosen to open a new thread for his headlamp problem.

This action will not help anyone who is able to assist so for continuity I have copied his latest post below.

"No dip beam, help please! Mot due in a week! I posted last week I was having issues with electric windows and dip beams. I have resolved the window, it was a faulty switch.
The lack of dip beams has me baffled. I've replaced the light switch stalk, checked the fuses and tested most of the 21 relays!!!! I still can't get the dip beam to work, main beam and side lights work. Bulbs are all good. I've wiggled all the connecting plugs behind the dash, by disconnecting and replacing them.
Someone please tell me there is a simple fix????? Thanks"


Hisnibs,


The simple answer is probably no. I previously posed the question about foglamps. So if you have foglamps make sure that they are switched OFF.


If no foglamps then you will have to do carry out, or pay for some fault finding. I have attached a circuit diagram to an earlier post, and suggested the "switch control panel" as a possible cause of your problem. I note that you have chosen to replace the steering column stalk, but without success.


Before you replace the colunm covers, I suggest that you apply an earth to pin 4 of connector B (grey wire). This should energise the dipped beams, when ignition is on, alternatively, but not as conclusive test for +12 V with a multimeter on the same wire. Given you statement above these checks will probably fail, but will make a good starting point.


Moving to the switch control unit H090, which is behind the push buttons, eLearn shows both connectors H090/A and H090/D as being 9 way connectors, with H090/D having pin numbering 10 to 18. (A bit strange?) Accepting this, poles A8 & D17 will be one in from the similar end of each connector. D17 has grey wire from switch and A8 has light blue wire with green stripe. This latter wire is the one which eventually connects to the dipped beam relay. Again an earth connection here plus ignition on, should switch your dipped beams on.


If further investigation is required, proceed in the same manner.

 

[Nidirwatchman]

Hello
I had the ducato 244 2.8 td both dip head lamp not coming on problem. Side lights and main main beam good. No Rear fog lamp and no instrumentation dash lights.

I too troubled shoot this problem to the point I proved I could get them working by jumping wires out after the H009 relay box and the path from head lamp control switch to H009 Relay box was good. According to wiring diagrams this only left the Relay Box H009 at fault. Ordered new Relay box at £300 and fitted it. Still the same problem. Went back to the diagrams to look this time for the dash light an fog lamp circuits. Low and behold on the dash light diagram only there is a fuse for dash lights only but it does also provide a second supply to Relay H009 box. Fuse was blown. Replaced it and now all head lamps are working including rear fog.

Re fitted original Relay Box and all is still working.
This fuse does not appear on dip head lamp wiring diagram.
Three days this took plus another day putting all the dash back together.

Fuse F24


Hope this helps anyone out there.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If the relay is switching and you have a proper 12v output on the output light side I would do a replacement wire to the headlight connectors and just snip the original wire off until after the test?? Then you can resolder the cars wiring and take your time resolving this.