Technical Head Gasket Faliure? Compression and Symptoms Inside :)

[randomizered]

Well...

I have poorer running for a bit, gunk in my coolant that was recently replaced, none in the oil though.

Last night it started stuttering, Engine light came on, so I got round to the compression test.

Now, I admit I didn't look up the cylinder numbers in the haynes, but presume in my notes, looking from the front into the bonnet of the car they are 1 -> 4 left to right.

Number One:
lots of oil around plug, sparking plug end covered in oil.
First test i didn't screw it in properly. Steam blowing from plug hole.
Once screwed in properly I got 250 psi


Number Two:
oil around plug, oil on spark plug end as number one.
Compression 215 psi

Number Three:
Dry plug end
Compression 205 psi

Number Four:
Dry end plug
Compression 158 psi



I tested in order 4 -> 1 as I started with the easiest access.


This looks f**cked to me.

I think all but no 4 compression are too high, the steam and oil on 1 and 2 look distinctly bad!


What could have gone wrong here do you think? Simple HG failure, something more sinister or is it all good and I'm a money



Cost wise how much should I be looking for at a garage?

I may try myself, got quotes on bolts and gasket sets from FIAT and factors, but as its my main car I need it quick!


Time to hunt a scrappy in the morn and 16V it?

53K is a bit soon isn't it? What could have caused it?

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

These are taken with the throttle wide open (and engine not running!)?

Looks like HG to me, but try about 5cc of oil in each cylinder in turn after running the test again. This will tend to tell you what state the bores/rings are in. (If the compression goes up, they are worn, too).

 

[randomizered]

Yep. throttle wide open, cranked, HT and LT leads removed. One plug out at a time, just how it says on the packet

Forgot about the oil trick, but I can't test it again till tomorrow.

Kristian

 

[99sei]

try it your self mate, you could have the head off in an hour or less skimmed by sun and put back on sun easily.

its straight forward, i did mine even though after i found it didnt need doing :bang:

i cheated though and used the same bolts and never skimmed the head but mine is only a fun car

before any one says anything, i know i should'nt have but its done now so i cant change it

 

[randomizered]

I can't even get a gasket kit by the weekend FIAT says they have to order it for Monday, halfords say dealer only, round towers (factor) say they can get it in, but if I order Saturday I may be lucky, but not likely.

I can get bolts from factor or FIAT no probs and both about £10.

The skimming though, don't know of any place round here (sure there are loads), am I looking for a garage or a machine shop? Still getting it done on saturday day will be a challenge lol.

I have the torque wrenches and degree gauges so that no problem, but I'm not sure what my testing is telling me

Has the HG gone. No low reading, but oil and high compression reading and blowing steam out of plug, and coolant loss/discolouration.


Gonna ring FIAT and a garage in the morning, for quotes on price for them to do it. Bet there will be a delay either way!

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

Has the HG gone. No low reading, but oil and high compression reading and blowing steam out of plug, and coolant loss/discolouration.

You have readings which are way outside normal range, oil in the coolant system and water vapour where no water vapour should be. To my mind this indicates that there is a leak from at least one combustion chamber to both the oil and water galleries. The best case scenario is a blown head gasket. You'll only know for certain when you pull the head.

I'd get Spesso or Fiat gaskets, rather than stuff from a factor of unknown brand.

Don't forget that you'll need to strip the head for skimming and that it must be skimmed. Might as well check the valve guides while you're at it, have the seats re-cut and replace the valve guide oil seals.

Either way, you'll be without a car for a week or so, so rapid supply of gaskets isn't exactly a priority.

 

[randomizered]

That's more hairy moments on the push bike each day then for work

I was thinking about the "steam" when the plug wasn't in properly, could this have been air and fuel mix instead? I didn't smell it

Well, looks like its garage or lots of work either way. Will get quotes tomo, or do it myself. Then run it for a bit and look for engine replacements.

The other thread on metal HG looks good

A head gasket set is the head gasket plus other gaskets (rocker cover, thermo etc)??

Kristian

 

[col7104]

In my HG set I got HG, valve stem oil seals, thermostat gasket, rocker cover gasket, exhaust gasket and inlet gasket. You need to buy a camshaft oil seal seperately at around £2.50 Oh, and new head bolts.

 

[randomizered]

Cheers Col, that's a lot of help

FIAT want £54 for the gasket set, factors were £25 but i think that was JUST head gasket.

If I do it I'll get the FIAT stuff even though its more ££, at least it should be quality. Bolts are cheap as, and will be done. Plus a new thermostat, £12, and possibly the metal gasket as well

Some people mention water pump, but I think mine is fine, plus cam belt and alternator belt may as well be done.



In certain respects I think I would do a better job than a garage as I will replace all the parts needed and know the source, rather than trust someone to do it all right.


Cheers for all the help peeps

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

Don't forget that a water pump is less than £30, so I'd replace simply 'cos you're in that vicinity. The Fiat ones are much better quality than some of the pattern ones knocking around.

Why you want the metal gasket as well?

 

[randomizered]

Well..

I want the gasket set so i can replace everything properly, but if i got the gasket set that comes with the metal gasket, I doubt the other gaskets would match...so...get the standard gasket set designed for my car, and just replace the head gasket over with the metal one.

Reason why?

Increased CR and hopefully harder wearing

Kristian

 

[AppleSei]

Desperatley unlucky for it to go at 53k

I would point at some poor maintence along the way for maybe a reason as for an early HG failure but i think youve had it from new and i doubt you are the owner to neglect the car so a desperate shame, but its been caught sooner rather than later

 

[StoneNewt]

From what I was told this 50~60k is a common time for the HG to go on the engine.

 

[MiG]

From what I was told this 50~60k is a common time for the HG to go on the engine.

mine went at 56k...

 

[randomizered]

Got some prices

FIAT dealer £500 (Gasket, pump,thermo,cam, tensioner, etc) and will chuck in a service for £50 as half of it will be done.


Local garage "ball park figure of £225" but may be more or less. Didn't know what car I have so bit reluctant to use him. Also mentioned oil and coolant may be changed for this price, so sounds like a bit of a bodge job.

Motor Tech said they can do the HG repair, do the cam and tensioner just for cost, and also do a full service for £260 Really seemed like they knew their stuff.


Sadly though, FIAT can do it soonest, (Tuesday), dodgy sounding garage on Friday and motortech on 29th. Plus motor tech is a long way to risk driving or towing, about 30 miles.

For £260 including the service that great value though. Just a service would be about £100 locally!


Decisions decisions

 

[arc]

Number One:
lots of oil around plug, sparking plug end covered in oil.
First test i didn't screw it in properly. Steam blowing from plug hole.
Once screwed in properly I got 250 psi


Number Two:
oil around plug, oil on spark plug end as number one.
Compression 215 psi

Number Three:
Dry plug end
Compression 205 psi

Number Four:
Dry end plug
Compression 158 psi

Don't worry about the oil on the plug ends, that'd just be spilt oil from when the oil has been topped up.

Don't worry about 'steam', it would've been compressed fuel/air mix not steam.

A variance of 1bar (14ish psi) between cylinders indicates a problem. Just a thought, your timing isn't out is it?

What im thinking.. high compression must be down to noncompressable stuff in the cylinders, like oil or water - however, these two systems would become pressurised when the engine is running.. which i reckon you'd notice. If the timing was off, it could cause funny compression readings.

Check your timing before taking the head off.

 

[fingers99]

If the timing was off, it could cause funny compression readings.

Interesting idea,but wouldn't you expect symmetry?

Try spinning it with the relevant plug out on the cylinders with high compression and then pop the guage on.

The other way is to pop a guage on the expansion tank and spin the motor. If the guage reading fluctuates, then the coolant is being pressurised which points very strongly to the HG.

 

[99sei]

i would recommend doing it your self mate, could get the head off, new water pump on in a few hours. head can be skimmed in a few days, will take another few hours to get it all back together.

if you do decide to do it your self and get stuck let me know and ill pop over and give you a hand

i just got my water pump for £18 so your looking at a max of £100 for new oil, new oil filter, new plugs and leads (standard leads), new cam belt and head gasket set. then there is just the price of skimming

i know some one that can defiantly do the skimming, not sure on price tho. i may know a person that can get it done for about £20.

 

[randomizered]

Well, I don't have a gauge to test the coolant tank pressure so that's a no go. I also don't see why the timing would go all of a sudden.

Some of the other symptoms I had were steam out of the throttle body, and steam out of the exhaust as it was "phutting", this was not so bad once the thermostat opened, but also looks like another symptom.

I am going to do it myself and hopefully have it done by the end of the week. Parents are pretty annoyed that I'm going to do it, but I think it will be a god learning experience, and its not like I can break it

Kristian

 

[fingers99]

Go for it -- what do parents know?

Re-reading the posts, you're going to have a god learning experience while 99sei's contact will defiantly do the skimming.

I expect to read about it in next week's Guardian.