Technical  Hand brake

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Technical  Hand brake

GBGraham

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Okay guys I'm back looking for assistance. I have stripped all the calipers, rebuilt and bled the system with no issues and I have now got a foot brake on all four.
The problem is that I can't get a good enough handbrake to the right hand side and I can't fathom why. There is nothing seized and there seems to be full movement of the caliper lever. although I don't understand on the operation of the mechanism in the caliper piston. The hand brake is operating at three clicks, four if I try to rip it out of the floor and I have tried all sorts of permutations with foot brake and handbrake operation. Any thoughts please?
 
Okay guys I'm back looking for assistance. I have stripped all the calipers, rebuilt and bled the system with no issues and I have now got a foot brake on all four.
The problem is that I can't get a good enough handbrake to the right hand side and I can't fathom why. There is nothing seized and there seems to be full movement of the caliper lever. although I don't understand on the operation of the mechanism in the caliper piston. The hand brake is operating at three clicks, four if I try to rip it out of the floor and I have tried all sorts of permutations with foot brake and handbrake operation. Any thoughts please?
Where a car has disc rear brakes and the brake caliper has a handbrake function, assuming nothing broken in side the self adjusting mechanism behind the piston (note if that is the case replace the caliper complete do not try to repair it!) for the handbrake adjuster to work the cable must be totally slack and the lever for the handbrake on the caliper must be at it's fully off position against it's stop on the caliper, then by pumping the brake the automatic adjustment inside the caliper will take up the slack. If this is correct, normally a gentle thumb pressure on that lever will move it a short distance and the disc will lock up until thumb pressure released, then if handbrake travel is too long adjust the cable/s, ideally after a road test to bed the brake pads in. Then jack car up and check brakes are coming off free and no drag or binding.
Over adjusting the handbrake cable will stop the handbrake efficiency, the adjuster will only work as intended if the cable allows the lever to rest against the stop on the caliper when hand brake off.
If the handbrake cable is faulty or sticking internally etc. gradually the brake will get worse.
 
Thanks for the info, I will try the procedure you have given, any suggestions if I still have no handbrake . . . new caliper?
 
Thanks for the info, I will try the procedure you have given, any suggestions if I still have no handbrake . . . new caliper?
Basically any excess movement at the caliper handbrake lever/arm if cable is slack indicates the caliper is at fault by not self adjusting, assuming brake pads are well bedded in.
The main thing before condemning the caliper is to make sure the cable is not holding the caliper arm away from it's stop when released. That is usually caused by a sticking handbrake cable or over adjusted hand brake cable.
 
Can you please try and explain what could be wrong in the caliper, as nothing is seized, I can only imagine there may be something not right in the piston, there's a spring a threaded body with trust face and bearing, retaining washer and retaining clip but I am not sure of it's operation.
 
Can you please try and explain what could be wrong in the caliper, as nothing is seized, I can only imagine there may be something not right in the piston, there's a spring a threaded body with trust face and bearing, retaining washer and retaining clip but I am not sure of it's operation.
First are you sure the fault is in the caliper, as usually it is not! In over 50 years of repairing cars professionally I have only ever had to replace two brake calipers due to faulty handbrake self adjusters, one a Peugeot 604 in 1976 and the other a Skoda Scout 4x4 a year ago, so in all the many hundreds of brake calipers I have fitted the rest were due to corrosion/seized/leaking, pistons etc.
If you have hand brake cable disconnected, good brake pads that are bedded in and you work/pump the brake pedal several times so that the pedal becomes firm/hard, then check the lever that comes out of the caliper and the handbrake cable is normally connected to, it should when you press it with your thumb only move a few mm before the brake disc starts to lock up/so you cannot turn it and on releasing the brake lever returns to it's stop and the brake disc is free to turn.
Compare with the good brake on the other side of vehicle.
If it does that then it is good.
If it doesn't do that either disc sticking/dragging, not returning the lever to it's stop or it has excessive travel then the brake caliper is faulty.
Parts are not readily available to repair the internal self adjusting mechanism of the handbrake caliper and it is foolish and can be dangerous to try to fix it.
In that situation I advise a new brake caliper.
 
Thanks again for a comprehensive answer and 100% nothing is seized. I was just curious how the internals of the piston works as I have been in auto engineering all my working life and I am struggling to grasp. One end of the spring has a locating hole in the piston but I can see nothing on the screw body apart from the possibility of interference drag of the spring against the body🧐
I'm not sure why it should be dangerous to investigate as the handbrake is mechanical and the footbrake is hydraulic🤔
 
Thanks again for a comprehensive answer and 100% nothing is seized. I was just curious how the internals of the piston works as I have been in auto engineering all my working life and I am struggling to grasp. One end of the spring has a locating hole in the piston but I can see nothing on the screw body apart from the possibility of interference drag of the spring against the body🧐
I'm not sure why it should be dangerous to investigate as the handbrake is mechanical and the footbrake is hydraulic🤔
Where a basic brake caliper, changing piston seals or pistons is fairly straight forward operation I have done many times.
However where the self adjusting ratchet side with it's wind back system (usually done with the correct tool) on handbrake calipers, parts are not generally available when they wear and fail, so as it is a safety critical part of the vehicle best practice is to replace the unit rather than attempt to repair.
It is always interesting if you have an old unit to open it up better to understand the workings of it, but as I said new parts are not available so not a good idea looking for a cheap repair.
 
I agree with all that @bugsymike has said.

Here's a page from the Haynes workshop manual on the 124 Coupe covering the overhaul of the rear brake caliper plus an enlarged illustration of the caliper handbrake auto-adjuster (I realize you may already have this info, but just in case you don't..) :-

Scan_20260326 (1).png
Scan_20260326 (3).png



In the past (last century, in fact) I worked as a Fiat dealership Mechanic on these, now old, Fiats and worked on those calipers (+ everything else).
As 'bugsymike' has suggested, the internal parts for the auto-adjuster are not usually available but I did strip and swap parts between old calipers to make one work. The caliper auto-adjuster could be fully dismantled on early calipers, later ones had a spun disc inside as a deterrent to disassembly. An original Fiat parts book shows the breakdown of the caliper but not the internals of the caliper piston but it shows what parts are included in the various parts kits that were available (little box in upper RH side of illustration). There was no part no. given for the piston, only the complete caliper.

Scan_20260326 (4).png


However the piston unit is available currently (just check the piston diameter is correct, there may have been 2 sizes used), so no need to buy a complete replacement caliper, the seals are readily available. e.g. from https://autoricambi.us but you probably have suppliers nearer to you :-

Screenshot_27-3-2026_0133_autoricambi.us.jpeg
Screenshot_27-3-2026_01040_autoricambi.us.jpeg


Now, bearing in mind that I'm relying on memory from c. 45 years ago, so I may not have this exactly correct, but iirc the rear brake caliper handbrake auto-adjuster adjusts up by small increments each time the handbrake operating lever at the caliper is operated and released, the adjustment takes place during the release part of the movement of the operating arm.
This can be seen with the caliper removed from the caliper mounting bracket, operating the short handbrake operating lever on the caliper, the piston will move outwards slightly but will retract slightly less if the internal adjuster is working correctly, repeated operation of the op. lever should result in the piston moving slowly/progressively outwards to take up brake pad wear.

I haven't been able so far to find a description of how the adjust works exactly, but afaik the internal spring grips and causes the adjuster nut to rotate slightly each time during release. I think I can see a tiny gap between the end of the nut and the piston bore - this might be enough to squash the spring when the handbrake is operated and then when released, cause the spring to twist the nut as it tries to unwind from having been compressed?

The problems I encountered were failed diaphragm springs (belleville-type washers) - split due to water ingress/corrosion and the tail end of the nut spring breaking off (which is why I earlier mentioned stripping 2 calipers and swapping parts around to make one good unit). I do recall that when refitting the piston, (if only the piston was removed to replace seals) the adjusting screw had to be held centrally and engaged with the adjusting nut inside the caliper piston by turning the piston. In fact when you wind the piston inwards (clockwise both sides) e.g. when fitting new brake pads, what you're doing is winding the piston and internal nut onto the adjusting screw/plunger, forcing the piston in will likely only cause damage, it has to be rotated and of course, as stated previously, the piston should finish with the little alignment mark above the deep groove to allow the brakes to be bled of air.

Here's an illustration of a (Girling) handbrake adjuster incorporated into a brake caliper - this is a ratchet type but I think the operation is somewhat similar to what is on the Fiat (Bendix, iirc), except the Fiat uses a peculiar nut and spring combination instead of the ratchet.

Scan_20260326 (9).png


As regards adjusting the handbrake, 3 clicks is too tight - Fiat iirc used to state 4 - 6 clicks but to ensure that when released there is no brake binding/dragging. There were often complaints that the lever travel was excessive or that the handbrake was poor (it should still hold the car on a reasonable slope).
After bleeding the brakes, I would ensure the handbrake cables were backed off sufficiently to allow the handbrake operating levers on the calipers to return to their stops (as 'bugsymike' has emphasised) then apply and hold the footbrake, operate the handbrake lever repeatedly, then release the footbrake and try the handbrake, repeat the adjustment procedure if necessary, then finally adjust the handbrake cable to give 4-6 clicks of movement ensuring the that there is no binding (if there is, back off the cable adjustment). Top-up the brake fluid if necessary. The pedal should be solid, hold down, then start engine, pedal should drop slightly showing that the servo is working normally. Before road-testing, re-torque wheel bolts.

I'll search and should I find any proper/definitive info on how this caliper handbrake auto-adjuster actually works I'll post it here.
 
That's great information, much appreciated. I would say that the spring on the screw threaded collar in the piston is interference fit.
Mine is the 34mm piston so do you know of a supplier in the EU that sells the piston please because if I have to deal with the Greek customs it becomes a nightmare and it could go missing for weeks.
 
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I'm not sure why it should be dangerous to investigate as the handbrake is mechanical and the footbrake is hydraulic🤔
However they're not completely separate - see the plunger seal in the rear brake caliper illustration below, if this seal,(indicated by red arrow) were to leak....

Revised_Scan_20260326 (3).png
 
Try Bigg Red....in UK.
I checked Bigg Red, they don't stock the rear (34mm) caliper piston with built in handbrake auto adjuster, they only have the front (48mm) piston.

Anyway, as the U.K. has 'exited' the EU, Op would likely have to deal with Customs in his country (Greece) if he ordered any parts from the U.K. which is outside the E.U.
 
That's great information, much appreciated. I would say that the spring on the screw threaded collar in the piston is interference fit.
Mine is the 34mm piston so do you know of a supplier in the EU that sells the piston please because if I have to deal with the Greek customs it becomes a nightmare and it could go missing for weeks.
I've done a fairly exhaustive (and exhausting! :sleep:) search on your behalf and only found one supplier, in (afaik) Germany, that lists the rear brake piston - however, I can't see if the piston includes the internal auto adjuster parts - it might be advisable to contact them to verify this before ordering (there's a 'Related Link' at the bottom of the page to do this) (and the price does seem rather high if it's just a bare piston):-



Screenshot_28-3-2026_02158_shop.arnold-classic.com.jpeg




I also found a picture of the internal parts of the caliper piston on the Autoricambi (U.S.) w/site (you may already have seen this, given your earlier description of the internal parts). Note these parts are used condition, not new and the price is per item, not all parts for this price :-

Screenshot_27-3-2026_235715_www.midwest-bayless.com.jpeg


Another alternative might be to try to find a second-hand caliper and cannibalise it for parts, afaik, the same caliper was used on some other Fiat models
e.g. 124 Spider, 125, possibly the X1/9 1500? and the Lancia Beta Monte Carlo.

I did find several suppliers of new replacement calipers in the 34mm size starting at c. Euro 45 each(cast iron body) up to Euro 145 each (aluminium body), as a last resort (see, I'm trying to save you money ;) ) e.g. :-

f124 rear brake caliper_Screenshot_27-3-2026_23053_www.martinwillems-webshop.eu.jpeg


Afaik, the parts supplier below, Autodoc operate in Greece?

Screenshot_28-3-2026_21616_www.auto-doc.ie.jpeg
 
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-------------------I would say that the spring on the screw threaded collar in the piston is interference fit.
That's how I remember the spring.
I'm still leaning towards the spring being compressed slightly as the small clearance (arrowed in red in diagram below) between the threaded collar (nut) and the internal bottom of the piston is taken up when the handbrake is applied and then when the h/brake is released the spring expands and because the spring end/tang is fixed the remainder of the spring gripping the collar/nut can then turn the collar/nut. The direction of winding of the spring coils relative to the thread direction, plus the interference fit of the spring possibly prevents the nut from backing off due to e.g. vibration in service?

Scan_20260326 (3).png


Question : what happens to a spring when it's compressed? Do the spring ends move relative to each other? I seem to remember they possibly do and if both ends are fixed/held stationary, the spring wire bells out like a beer barrel but reverts to a cylindrical shape when released. In the current brake caliper situation, as one end of the spring is fixed, the rotation of the other spring end would therefore approx. double?

Also, I vaguely remember the collar/nut and operating plunger have a multi-start thread (possibly a 5 start thread, although I might be confusing it with the thread on an inertia type starter motor shaft?) This, if I'm correct, would result in a relatively large axial movement of the collar/nut for a very small angular movement of the collar/nut? Also a multi-start thread would allow a small force to more easily rotate the collar/nut assisted by the little bearing plate?

Anyway, if I do manage to find a technical explanation of how this type of caliper handbrake auto-adjuster actually works, I'll post it here.
Somebody, somewhere, surely has either an original Fiat manual that covers this handbrake adjuster or perhaps a Bendix? brake instruction manual?

Sadly, back in the day, such tech. info was often discarded/tossed out when it was felt it was unlikely to see any more of such models in the workshops.
Now, for older car models, all that's available is whatever tech. info. that others have saved and are prepared to upload onto the i/net.

@GBGraham Like you, I've spent a lifetime involved in Auto Engineering and feel frustrated when I can't figure out how something is supposed to work or find the technical information to enable me to understand it's operation. But I haven't given up!! (yet!).
 
Is the back of the brake pad flat or is there a "nipple" of some sort to prevent the piston from rotating due to service brake or handbrake action ?
 
Is the back of the brake pad flat or is there a "nipple" of some sort to prevent the piston from rotating due to service brake or handbrake action ?
Indeed, there is a 'protuberence' o_O on the back of each pad that engages with a deep groove on the piston face that pushes against the pad, to prevent any rotation once installed (it's on all 4 rear pads to avoid possible installation mistakes). Here's some pics of brake pads and caliper piston with groove :-

fiat124sprearbrakepadset_1024x1024.webpScreenshot_28-3-2026_23395_autoricambi.us.jpeg
 
That's how I remember the spring.
I'm still leaning towards the spring being compressed slightly as the small clearance (arrowed in red in diagram below) between the threaded collar (nut) and the internal bottom of the piston is taken up when the handbrake is applied and then when the h/brake is released the spring expands and because the spring end/tang is fixed the remainder of the spring gripping the collar/nut can then turn the collar/nut. The direction of winding of the spring coils relative to the thread direction, plus the interference fit of the spring possibly prevents the nut from backing off due to e.g. vibration in service?

View attachment 483771

Question : what happens to a spring when it's compressed? Do the spring ends move relative to each other? I seem to remember they possibly do and if both ends are fixed/held stationary, the spring wire bells out like a beer barrel but reverts to a cylindrical shape when released. In the current brake caliper situation, as one end of the spring is fixed, the rotation of the other spring end would therefore approx. double?

Also, I vaguely remember the collar/nut and operating plunger have a multi-start thread (possibly a 5 start thread, although I might be confusing it with the thread on an inertia type starter motor shaft?) This, if I'm correct, would result in a relatively large axial movement of the collar/nut for a very small angular movement of the collar/nut? Also a multi-start thread would allow a small force to more easily rotate the collar/nut assisted by the little bearing plate?

Anyway, if I do manage to find a technical explanation of how this type of caliper handbrake auto-adjuster actually works, I'll post it here.
Somebody, somewhere, surely has either an original Fiat manual that covers this handbrake adjuster or perhaps a Bendix? brake instruction manual?

Sadly, back in the day, such tech. info was often discarded/tossed out when it was felt it was unlikely to see any more of such models in the workshops.
Now, for older car models, all that's available is whatever tech. info. that others have saved and are prepared to upload onto the i/net.

@GBGraham Like you, I've spent a lifetime involved in Auto Engineering and feel frustrated when I can't figure out how something is supposed to work or find the technical information to enable me to understand it's operation. But I haven't given up!! (yet!).
I love the input and information and it is much appreciated.
I'm not sure how you would see it but my thinking is that it should tension and grip in one direction and freewheel in the other. The collar (nut) and/or spring is/are worn, so this is making the grip of the interference is failing when applying the handbrake, thus the nut is turning too freely and is slipping in the spring and by not allowing the spring to tension up a grip the nut sufficiently to wind it out and take up the slack so to speak. 🤔
 
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