Technical Hand Brake...!

[idandan]

My Ducato 2008 2.2 HDi has a rubbish handbrake, no matter how well I adjust it.
The Parking brake consists of small shoes in the disc / drum system on the rear wheels.
How can I make it work better?
I have done every correct adjustment possible, in the drum, on the cables and at the lever.
I have changed, cleaned, oiled, roughened surfaces, replaced cables, cleaned drums etc etc. A lot of which really needed doing..

So far the best result came from welding a bracket onto the lever, which prevented it from bending during use, so that it could pull more efficiently.
However the brakes seem unable to work well enough to easily pass an MOT, or to hold the van on a hill UNLESS they are tightened up so much that the brake shoes are binding on the drum.
The adjustment described in the X250 manual is not good enough. It does not solve the issue.

Any advice appreciated (other than anything about 5 clicks +/-1...!),
or 'leave it in gear'.. really does anyone not leave it in gear?

Cheers

 

[porta]

I’m sorry to say that it’s a case of perciverence, it took me four attempts at mine before it worked. And, because it’s an ‘in disc’, it’s a real pain in the backside.
There maybe some cheats on here that I haven’t found via the search function.
The Peugeot garage down here also had issues with a friends, it wasn’t perfect wehn he got it back, binding, so he took it back and they slacked it off, so very little breaking effort. We sorted his first time and I swear we did NOTHING different

 

[Communicator]

I agree with @porta that handbrake adjustment can be fiddly. When I checked I have two adjustment procedures on file, both are eLearn extracts. Digging deeper one is for the x250 and saved from a post made by "Peter James" many years ago. Here is a link to that thread. See post #12 for link to Microsoft Word document.

The second extract that I have on file is on inspection from my own copy of eLearn for the x244. The significant difference between the two extracts is that when setting the brake shoe adjusters, the x250 is backed off by 5 teeth on the adjuster, whereas in the x244 version, 10 teeth are mentioned. This results in twice the initial clearance between the shoes and the drum when compared with the x250 initial setting. As the handbrake is almost identical on both models, I may try the smaller setting for my x244.
In general I usually make the final adjustment, so that there is resistance at the wheels with 3 notches of the lever. I have not applied a spring balance to the lever.

I have not mentioned "clicks".

 

[camionpilot]

Very common problem , when mine used to go for tests they were assisted by the tester [ commercial vehicle garage ] with the footbrake ...! lol

Lot of the problem is the cables are to small and suffer from stretch .

 

[porta]

@Communicator that toothed adjuster is also a PITA

 

[idandan]

I think some testers either must know these are a bad design, or realise that a perfect handbrake is not that important. The tester that did mine suggested before the test that I should in practice always 'leave it in gear and point the wheels at the kerb'.. and then failed me on it anyway.
The same garage had them arguing between themselves over 5 clicks or 3 clicks. Then the subject of cable stretch came up, by which time I was done. I firmly believe that all remidies combined only improve things a bit. cables dont stretch, clicks only leads to madness. The e-service book states something like 'click the ratchet until the wheel cannot turn..' does that mean cannot turn with the wheel on or off, or small effort or big effort? Then some advise that the shoes would be left just touching the drum, whereas others say no it has to spin freely. Honestly lets face it, they just dont work..!

 

[porta]

I think some testers either must know these are a bad design, or realise that a perfect handbrake is not that important. The tester that did mine suggested before the test that I should in practice always 'leave it in gear and point the wheels at the kerb'.. and then failed me on it anyway.
The same garage had them arguing between themselves over 5 clicks or 3 clicks. Then the subject of cable stretch came up, by which time I was done. I firmly believe that all remidies combined only improve things a bit. cables dont stretch, clicks only leads to madness. The e-service book states something like 'click the ratchet until the wheel cannot turn..' does that mean cannot turn with the wheel on or off, or small effort or big effort? Then some advise that the shoes would be left just touching the drum, whereas others say no it has to spin freely. Honestly lets face it, they just dont work..!

It was far better on the old drums…you’d just carry a lump hammer under the seat, so wehn you came out on a morning, or it had been left for some time, and they were stuck on, you’d just give it a couple of whacks and it’d be fine!

 

[idandan]

Very common problem , when mine used to go for tests they were assisted by the tester [ commercial vehicle garage ] with the footbrake ...! lol

Lot of the problem is the cables are to small and suffer from stretch .

Do you replace both the front and rear cable. And if they 'stretch' then why would they work if over tightened (binding), but not if loosened to spec? Surely if they are strectched, they cannot be adjusted properly. And if they can be adjusted, they cant be strectched any more?

 

[porta]

Do you replace both the front and rear cable. And if they 'stretch' then why would they work if over tightened (binding), but not if loosened to spec? Surely if they are strectched, they cannot be adjusted properly. And if they can be adjusted, they cant be strectched any more?

If anything like the Uno and strada ones, they’d stretch till they were ineffective or just snap

 

[idandan]

If anything like the Uno and strada ones, they’d stretch till they were ineffective or just snap

So, as said if they work if adjusted, they are not 'stretched' whatever that means, just now too tight.

 

[bugsymike]

My Iveco 3.5 tonne Daily vans had basically the same set up and as long as the handbrake shoes were good quality make, drum was clean, everything freed off, then with cable backed off, I would adjust shoes inside brake drums solid , then back off enough to turn the wheels after working hand brake a few times to square up, then adjust cable so wheels free at one handbrake lever click but at three clicks I could put a long bar on the wheel nuts and not turn the wheels.
Generally speaking at four clicks I could stop on a hill with a 3.5 tonne loaded trailer on the handbrake and do a hill start.
A while since I looked under a Ducato, are the cables and leverage more flimsy?

 

[idandan]

My Iveco 3.5 tonne Daily vans had basically the same set up and as long as the handbrake shoes were good quality make, drum was clean, everything freed off, then with cable backed off, I would adjust shoes inside brake drums solid , then back off enough to turn the wheels after working hand brake a few times to square up, then adjust cable so wheels free at one handbrake lever click but at three clicks I could put a long bar on the wheel nuts and not turn the wheels.
Generally speaking at four clicks I could stop on a hill with a 3.5 tonne loaded trailer on the handbrake and do a hill start.
A while since I looked under a Ducato, are the cables and leverage more flimsy?

I dont know if they are more flimsy. The consensus seems to be just that the shoes are too small. What are good quality shoes makes? is a shoe not just a shoe? And by saying 'back off enough to turn the wheels' do you me easily rotate it with one hand, but that it still has a bit of friction from the shoe?

 

[Communicator]

I dont know if they are more flimsy. The consensus seems to be just that the shoes are too small. What are good quality shoes makes? is a shoe not just a shoe? And by saying 'back off enough to turn the wheels' do you me easily rotate it with one hand, but that it still has a bit of friction from the shoe?

The wheels should be able to turn freely with the handbrake released.

 

[bugsymike]

I dont know if they are more flimsy. The consensus seems to be just that the shoes are too small. What are good quality shoes makes? is a shoe not just a shoe? And by saying 'back off enough to turn the wheels' do you me easily rotate it with one hand, but that it still has a bit of friction from the shoe?

I don't think Ducato drums any smaller than Iveco and several car companies use this principle from Toyota to Volvo etc. Companies like Ferodo make good brake shoes and pads etc. I had some cheap Chinese front pads one time and it seriously didn't want to stop.
Generally if brake shoe material is soft they work well but wear out quicker with more brake dust and the opposite with harder material, companies like Ferodo get a good balance.
I would say turn wheel with one hand but it shouldn't continue when you remove your hand. I would say though, always road test after doing brakes and check that one wheel isn't getting hotter with your hand and if it doubt jack it up and check it.
With drum off shoes should be able to slide side to side fairly easily to allow self centering and on leverage points I add a little lube to, making sure none gets near the drums or friction material.
Another thing I tend to do is now and again use the handbrake whilst vehicle is still moving (you may find ECU on modern vehicle tries affect this) clean the rust from the drums as to the brake discs and pads are working all the time but drum handbrakes often only when parking.

 

[porta]

I dont know if they are more flimsy. The consensus seems to be just that the shoes are too small. What are good quality shoes makes? is a shoe not just a shoe? And by saying 'back off enough to turn the wheels' do you me easily rotate it with one hand, but that it still has a bit of friction from the shoe?

Yes, easily rotate, there shouldn’t be any friction/resistance. It’s important to get everything centered, applying and releasing the handbrake several times.
It’s also useful, once you’ve built everything back up, to apply handbrake and take up tension in first gear, then repeat in reverse, at least it was more useful on true drum brake systems.
@bugsymike the iveco stuff was always a bit more ‘industrial’ than the fwd competition

 

[bugsymike]

Didn't Iveco say they built their vans and pickups down from lorries whereas Fiat built theirs up from cars.
This meant Ivecos had heavy chassis and lower pay loads which I could live with after all the rusting Transits I had before.

 

[porta]

Didn't Iveco say they built their vans and pickups down from lorries whereas Fiat built theirs up from cars.
This meant Ivecos had heavy chassis and lower pay loads which I could live with after all the rusting Transits I had before.

I do like the iveco’s, at least they’re built like vans should be, except that goggle-eyed one…although, I have to say, apart from those ‘top hat’ handbrakes and silly water ingress into fuse boxes, they were far more reliable than any other vans I’ve had the (dis) pleasure of working on

 

[Communicator]

I think some testers either must know these are a bad design, or realise that a perfect handbrake is not that important. The tester that did mine suggested before the test that I should in practice always 'leave it in gear and point the wheels at the kerb'.. and then failed me on it anyway.
The same garage had them arguing between themselves over 5 clicks or 3 clicks. Then the subject of cable stretch came up, by which time I was done. I firmly believe that all remidies combined only improve things a bit. cables dont stretch, clicks only leads to madness. The e-service book states something like 'click the ratchet until the wheel cannot turn..'oth does that mean cannot turn with the wheel on or off, or small effort or big effort? Then some advise that the shoes would be left just touching the drum, whereas others say no it has to spin freely. Honestly lets face it, they just dont work..!

Leaving in gear, with vehicle wheels turned against the curb, has been standard advice with commercial vehicles for many years. Also gear in reverse if facing downhill, and vice versa. That last bit was because earlier diesels could start and run with the ignition off.

There should be considerable resistance to turning the road wheels by hand, at 3 notches on the handbrake, and full application at 5 notches.

I have had brake cables stretch on other vehicles, to the extent that no further adjustment was possible. Cure was to place a tubular spacer under the adjustment nuts. Our current practice with different vehicles is to leave the handbrake off when parked on the level on our property. This avoids cable stretch.

You could take "cannot turn" as applying to the adjuster wheel. I think that when the shoes come into contact with the drum, you will not be able to move the adjuster further. Then back off 5 adjuster teeth and the hub or refitted road wheel MUST turn freely.

Have you followed the link that I provided in post #3, to the earlier thread, dowloaded and studied the eLearn procedure?

 

[idandan]

Leaving in gear, with vehicle wheels turned against the curb, has been standard advice with commercial vehicles for many years. Also gear in reverse if facing downhill, and vice versa. That last bit was because earlier diesels could start and run with the ignition off.

There should be considerable resistance to turning the road wheels by hand, at 3 notches on the handbrake, and full application at 5 notches.

I have had brake cables stretch on other vehicles, to the extent that no further adjustment was possible. Cure was to place a tubular spacer under the adjustment nuts. Our current practice with different vehicles is to leave the handbrake off when parked on the level on our property. This avoids cable stretch.

You could take "cannot turn" as applying to the adjuster wheel. I think that when the shoes come into contact with the drum, you will not be able to move the adjuster further. The back off 5 adjuster teeth and the hub or refitted road wheel MUST turn freely.

Have you followed the link that I provided in post #3, to the earlier thread, dowloaded and studied the eLearn procedure?

Cheers, yes i've done the eLearn hand brake adjust procedure numerous time. the extra things i've since learnt include that the handbrake lever iteself is important to look at, it may well be bending sidways to the direction of pull and needs a bracket welding on. I did this previously and it improved things alot. However the brake inevitably is alwasys still either binding (the drum gets hot) and has to be backed off with the adjustments and is no longer efficient.

 

[Communicator]

We have a language problem. I translate binding as stuck or siezed. Yes if the brakes are rubbing they will heat up. That is what brakes do. The important thing is to make any adjustment in the right place and correct sequence. Which means that since adjusting the shoes is such a pain, great care has to be taken to get them correctly adjusted.

Another point is that overheated linings on the shoes, could become glazed. Roughening up may not be sufficient to overcome this.