Technical Hand Brake...!

[idandan]

My Ducato 2008 2.2 HDi has a rubbish handbrake, no matter how well I adjust it.
The Parking brake consists of small shoes in the disc / drum system on the rear wheels.
How can I make it work better?
I have done every correct adjustment possible, in the drum, on the cables and at the lever.
I have changed, cleaned, oiled, roughened surfaces, replaced cables, cleaned drums etc etc. A lot of which really needed doing..

So far the best result came from welding a bracket onto the lever, which prevented it from bending during use, so that it could pull more efficiently.
However the brakes seem unable to work well enough to easily pass an MOT, or to hold the van on a hill UNLESS they are tightened up so much that the brake shoes are binding on the drum.
The adjustment described in the X250 manual is not good enough. It does not solve the issue.

Any advice appreciated (other than anything about 5 clicks +/-1...!),
or 'leave it in gear'.. really does anyone not leave it in gear?

Cheers

 

[idandan]

We have a language problem. I translate binding as stuck or siezed. Yes if the brakes are rubbing they will heat up. That is what brakes do. The important thing is to make any adjustment in the right place and correct sequence. Which means that since adjusting the shoes is such a pain, great care has to be taken to get them correctly adjusted.

Another point is that overheated linings on the shoes, could become glazed. Roughening up may not be sufficient to overcome this.

Binding, is literally that the brakes are in contact with the drum / disc, not necessarily stuck or seized. MOT man will say the brakes are binding if they are adjusted too close to the drum.

 

[idandan]

Well, I may have answered my own question. I looked again at what had worked previously. Yes all the adjustments at the hub and cable points need to be done proper, blah blah blah, but this does not always fix it in my experience. Yes, brake drums and shoes need to be good and clean, though I dont think they need to be replaced with crazy expensive original parts. And No, cable stretch is not a thing, just tighten up any slack, but only replace them if they break.
I have now realised that the most likely culprit is at the lever itself. I'd fixed this before and thought it was done, but on looking again it has since bent outward again, despite the new welded on bracket. The original mount holding the lever upright is too weak. And as the lever is on the outer, door side of the driver seat, it can get pushed out of position easily in the process of getting in and out of the cab. Looking at it again today, the new bracket was obviously not enough and the lever had since bent out again from a different point on the mount. I crow-barred it back into place and hammered a wedge underneath. Now the lever is parrallel to the seat and its pull is inline with the cable. The difference is amazing. So bizarre that such a small thing could make such a difference.

 

[Ocwobio]

On my tag axle unit, I had difficulties at the MOT 2 years ago. Last year, it was flagged yet again, and ended up (allegedly) having new shoes, and the adjustment by someone who really should know these brakes inside out. He told me he had adjusted the cables, rods and adjusters as per the recommended method, but paid attention to the relative angles of the rods, linkages and bell cranks to obtain maximum transfer of leverage. I get that- it's like the old mountain bike cantilever brakes where any point that pull changes direction needs to be close to a 90 degree pull, +/- a little either side to avoid mechanical advantage loss-as the further past the 90 point you go, leverage ratio changes and a loss of force occurs. MOT a week on Monday, maybe I'll get through OK, maybe not. Last time at this MOT place, (who are decent people and will cut as much slack as they dare, and they do not do repairs, just testing of HGV,PSV, and LCV) I managed to get the lever pulled hard enough to just pass, but did my back in and the tester had to get the damn thing off for me! I'm thinking now of two schemes- one to make a stout extension handle that can be slipped on the handbrake lever to give a longer leverage, or a permanently welded on one to make it as long as is practical. If anyone has a lever for an 05 ish duc, cheap, I may buy it as a guinea pig?

 

[porta]

On my tag axle unit, I had difficulties at the MOT 2 years ago. Last year, it was flagged yet again, and ended up (allegedly) having new shoes, and the adjustment by someone who really should know these brakes inside out. He told me he had adjusted the cables, rods and adjusters as per the recommended method, but paid attention to the relative angles of the rods, linkages and bell cranks to obtain maximum transfer of leverage. I get that- it's like the old mountain bike cantilever brakes where any point that pull changes direction needs to be close to a 90 degree pull, +/- a little either side to avoid mechanical advantage loss-as the further past the 90 point you go, leverage ratio changes and a loss of force occurs. MOT a week on Monday, maybe I'll get through OK, maybe not. Last time at this MOT place, (who are decent people and will cut as much slack as they dare, and they do not do repairs, just testing of HGV,PSV, and LCV) I managed to get the lever pulled hard enough to just pass, but did my back in and the tester had to get the damn thing off for me! I'm thinking now of two schemes- one to make a stout extension handle that can be slipped on the handbrake lever to give a longer leverage, or a permanently welded on one to make it as long as is practical. If anyone has a lever for an 05 ish duc, cheap, I may buy it as a guinea pig?

I wouldn’t extend the hand brake lever, you’re setting yourself up for a world of trouble, from weakening the lever mounting to straining /stretching all the rods and cables, and, of course sticking brakes and premature wear. The handbrake should be adjusted properly. Is the handbrake the ‘top hat’ system, ie shoes internal to the disk or the earlier drum type?

 

[bugsymike]

I agree with @porta don't go modifying handbrake lever, if brakes are all good then efficiency should be correct.
Apart from anything else the handbrakes is only a flimsy bit of pressed steel so would probably self destruct.
If brake has met the Mot efficiency reading with the Mot guy working the lever, that should be enough, however if the handbrake is in a drum with hydraulic foot brake wheel cylinders you may find by pressing the foot brake firmly as you apply the hand brake you achieve a bit more braking effort from the handbrake.
Many years ago I had a old lady customer with a Triumph Herald which is renowned for a pretty poor handbrake,(no chance of a boy racer doing a hand brake turn) however she had two purpose built mods, one was small extensions that fitted to the levers coming out of the brake back plates, this had the effect of increasing the overall leverage. The other thing was a mod to the handbrake lever area which in effect was an other lever that by pushing forward jacked the original handbrake lever on and the release button was disabled on the original one as the overcentre action flipped the lever into an on position.

 

[Ocwobio]

I wouldn’t extend the hand brake lever, you’re setting yourself up for a world of trouble, from weakening the lever mounting to straining /stretching all the rods and cables, and, of course sticking brakes and premature wear. The handbrake should be adjusted properly. Is the handbrake the ‘top hat’ system, ie shoes internal to the disk or the earlier drum type?

I get the flimsy bit; however, there would be no difference in me pulling an extended lever, or my weightlifting neighbour putting much more force into the standard lever, the effects would likely be the same or similar. (Say, me = 33kgf, neighbour= 66kgf, if you see what I'm getting at). I think if I was to start metal bashing, then a serious look at beefing up the whole shooting match would be worthwhile. That would then of course, leave the cables and wheel mechanisms as the weak points. On reflection, perhaps dynamite is the preferred solution!

 

[bugsymike]

I get the flimsy bit; however, there would be no difference in me pulling an extended lever, or my weightlifting neighbour putting much more force into the standard lever, the effects would likely be the same or similar. (Say, me = 33kgf, neighbour= 66kgf, if you see what I'm getting at). I think if I was to start metal bashing, then a serious look at beefing up the whole shooting match would be worthwhile. That would then of course, leave the cables and wheel mechanisms as the weak points. On reflection, perhaps dynamite is the preferred solution!

Or a brick under the back wheel
Joking apart it is sometimes possible to increase the leverage at the expense of more travel by making a modified length arm where the two cables join. Obviously it would have to be well engineered.
Maybe something in this area. So at least it would not be altering anything in the cab.
I am assuming all the original handbrake operation is in good order.
I had handbrake drums inside the rear brake discs on all my Iveco Daily's and even with a fully loaded 3.5 tonne van and a 3.5 tonne loaded trailer on the back I never had any handbrake issues, but I always stripped, rebuilt and manually adjusted at the drums before adjusting any thing else.