General Great Wall Peri - A Fiat Panda copy

[rbrian]

I respect the Japanese for their quality standards and innovation. The Chinese however, work differently, which is a great shame. They don't deserve to become major players in the car industry.

Japan didn't have much innovation in the past either. They got their ideas from the British and Americans, who pioneered the Just In Time system, for example. After WWII they were a mess, as were the Germans - look at them now! If only we had done what we suggested they did.

China is modernising faster than Japan did, increasing their spending on R&D to a higher percentage of their GDP than just about anyone else - and in a few years their GDP will be greater than any other country, so they will spend more on R&D than anyone, by some margin. Everybody laughed at Japan in the 60s and 70s, they're still sort of laughing at the Korean Hyundai and Kia, but they're getting better all the time - and have previously unheard of 7 year warranties. Do you get that with a Fiat?

Whether copying is right or wrong, it's still going to happen - primarily because China doesn't have much in the way of copyright laws. When they start selling good cars at low prices - which they will - plenty of people will buy them. Perhaps the Italian car industry will go the same way as the British. Is that really so bad? I for one would far rather have a modern, funky, safe, spacious Honda Jazz than a 30 year old (even when new), cramped, slow Rover Mini.

Europe had its industrial revolution two hundred years ago, China is doing it now. The same things are happening; social unrest, terrible working conditions, terrible wages, environmental degradation - and huge economic growth. They will get the growth pangs over with much quicker than we did - in 20 years Chinese cars will be winning magazine tests, and have higher safety standards than European cars. And they'll be cheaper.

Perhaps I'd be more upset about it if I remembered the British car industry, but it was pretty much over before I was born. I am a citizen of the world, I don't put any one country above any other. If China can take our ideas, build on them, and do it better - as Japan did - then I take my hat off to them.

There is an old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."

Times are getting interesting.

 

[eleganza]

If China can take our ideas, build on them, and do it better - as Japan did - then I take my hat off to them.

Well in this case and many others, the Chinese don't appear to be improving on our ideas. They are basically copying a Fiat Panda and producing it using low quality materials. I wouldn't call that an improvement. Anyway, I think it will be very hard for them to market the "Peri" in Europe because we have certain safety standards and copyright laws. Let's just hope Fiat win this copyright battle in Europe.

 

[Andy Panda]

Just noticed the bloomin' thing has something that the Panda hasn't,namely a USB socket to easily connect an ipod,now why couldn't Fiat have thought of that?

 

[eleganza]

Just noticed the bloomin' thing has something that the Panda hasn't,namely a USB socket to easily connect an ipod,now why couldn't Fiat have thought of that?

Probably forgot...don't forget, Fiat spent so much time and effort designing the Panda from scratch. What work have the Chinese done? Just added an ipod connection to a Panda. Shame on them.

 

[The Beard]

Don't forget cars from Japan and later on other cars from the Far East were also (in their day) condidered to be crap but look at them now. Having said that there has to come a point when the EU will put their foot down. Despite professing to be an organisation that supports free trade, they can be very protectionist. Remember the Chinese underwear affair when the EU blocked millions of £s of garments and turned back shiploads and left hundreds of container-loads sitting on docksides. There has to come a point when the EU will put its foot down. The Chinese government rely so much on exports they will have to come to heel. Don't forget the Chinese are also well known for human rights abuses, cruelty to animals and contributing to the potential extinction of rare breeds.
It's also been said that if Britain stopped all kinds of carbon producing activities from transport to power, today, then at the rate of one new coal powered power station per week, the Chinese will have undone any good work carried out by us in one year.
Remember, Chairman Mao, when asked how Communism could destroy capitalism, replied: "We don't have to; capitalism will destroy itself". If we keep on buying their goods, he will be proved right. Oops, waffling again. Must be my age.

 

[Nuova500]

"Don't forget the Chinese are also well known for human rights abuses, cruelty to animals and contributing to the potential extinction of rare breeds."


I think that applies to much of the world... the Japanese are as much to blame for animal cruelty and whale hunting which will lead to extinction, and their human rights abuses maybe in the past, but not forgotten.
Dont forget, every nation has its darkside... after the war we and the rest of the world readily bought imports from Germany and Japan. I dont expect your average consumer gives a toss about a countries darker habits, as long as they get something cheap.

I read a roadtest of the Chinese version of the Rover 75 recently, by a UK reporter. He actually came away thinking it was better than the real version and alledgedly the Chinese have elimenated the old K series head gasket problem too.

 

[eleganza]

I read a roadtest of the Chinese version of the Rover 75 recently, by a UK reporter. He actually came away thinking it was better than the real version and alledgedly the Chinese have elimenated the old K series head gasket problem too.

It's called the Roewe 750 now

 

[Hellcat]

The chinese are renownd for their reverse engineering. As their customs are the strictest in the world, nothing is allowed through without being checked. Everything is taken apart, and not suprisingly copies are not far down the road.

 

[StevenRB45]

The koreans have been at it for years....daewoo astra anyone??? cept of course they payed royalties on that. They still can't build proper cars on the whole, and when they do kia ceed, hyundai I30 e.t.c. they charge proper car prices for them, if you build a car properly it costs money if you build a tin can look alike it doesn't the more china modernises the higher wages go and the less of an advantage they have then we have the same argument about indian cars in 20 years after ford and gm have gone under. Also the rover 75 is under dispute in china because one company has the rights to build it, one builds a dodgy knockoff and there is much wrangling

 

[The Beard]

I think that applies to much of the world... the Japanese are as much to blame for animal cruelty and whale hunting which will lead to extinction, and their human rights abuses maybe in the past, but not forgotten.
Dont forget, every nation has its darkside... after the war we and the rest of the world readily bought imports from Germany and Japan. I dont expect your average consumer gives a toss about a countries darker habits, as long as they get something cheap.

The Japanese are certainly causing problems when it comes to whaling, but we didn't buy much from the Germans until 10 years after the Nazis were defeated and almost 20 years after the Japanese were beaten. You also said "after the war". China has a dark side now. Don't forget it was a British Army officer who was charged with getting VW up and running again as it was considered vital to get German industry working to avoid starvation, civil unrest and the threat from the Soviet Union who were making mischief even then. Nissan were actually started with the production of a licence-built Austin 7. Therein lies the rub. They made the car in agreement with Austin of England and because of the way the world was then there was no chance of the car ever being sold against the British car. Unfortunately, you were right in what you said about most people not being bothered about the morals of buying from a particular country. In the '60's, an aquaintance of my Father's bought a Datsun. Not only did everybody at the golf club laugh and say how they thought these cheap Jap cars would never take off, but they were all amazed because the man had been a prisoner of the Japanese during the war. There is also an unpleasant fact that in this country, many of us are so shallow that people buy BMW 3-series, not because it's arguably the best small/medium car in the world, but because others believe it is. Eh? Well, how many of the best handling car in its class do you see driven in the manner for which they were designed? They don't pay £25K for these things, they get them on lease do less than 10K Miles a year and want everybody to look at them when they're parked outside a wine bar. A lot of the household goods in Sainsbury's used to be made in Italy, France and the U.K. Next time you go in have a look at how much stuff is now made in China. That's a lot of European workers out of work.
Marshall guitar amps are made in Hertfordshire. You can buy a 1st class 50 watt combo for about £5-600. The Vox AC30 (30 watt) was used by the Beatles and the Stones and is still available now. Price? About £1100. Place of manufacture? China. Well that's a few more on the dole then. Who cares? After all, the owners of the firm are making more money. I know this sounds a bit hypocritical seeing we all drive "Italian" cars, but a prosperous Germany will spread its wealth outwards. This is the same for any country in Western Europe.
China will only use its wealth for its own good. Nothing new there you might say, but when they are using that wealth to prop up the likes of Mugabe in Zimbabwe not to mention other African dictators The reason? Most of these countries have reserves of oil, coal, iron ore, gold and diamonds. By securing their own resources by propping up these dictators they are planning a path to start running down most other major powers in the world.
Petrol prices going up? Nothing to do with the Chinese? Steel? Rubber? Plastics?
I know this sounds like a capitalist/imperialist right wing rant but, I really do think the West has to make a stand sooner rather than later, otherwise we'll all be on the Great Wall Forum.

 

[Derv drinker]

It happened with the Japs and the motorcycle industry, then the cars. South Korea and and shipbuilding, lets face it will happen with the cars - mind you they won't be as fast the Panda, I bet the paint is full of Lead!!!

 

[rbrian]

China will only use its wealth for its own good. Nothing new there you might say, but when they are using that wealth to prop up the likes of Mugabe in Zimbabwe not to mention other African dictators The reason? Most of these countries have reserves of oil, coal, iron ore, gold and diamonds.

Yes, of course, Britain would never do that!

 

[HP]

Dancing bears, cloned Pandas - will the cruelty ever end?

...sorry!

 

[The Beard]

Yes, of course, Britain would never do that!

Of course we did. We were also major players in the slave trade and a third of the world made up our empire. But the world has moved on. When we left the countries that we had conquered, they were left with local senior Police Officers, Military Officers, Civil Servants, Doctors and administrators. Unlike other nations who simply cut and ran leaving the empires to their own devices with the anarchy that ensued. The world has moved on since then and I don't have any objections to China joining the motoring world, but surely, what we want, and sometimes get from the Italians is passion, style, individualism, a degree of excitement, history and sporting tradition. All the major manufacturers and the likes of Pininfarina, Bertone, Zagato, Touring, Moretti, Iso and de Tomaso are what have made the Italian car industry what it is today, warts and all. Ultimately, we the consumer/enthusiast are not well served by organisations that simply copy what others have spent up to a century developing and then make them using slave labour rates and employing the kind of enforced population movement last seen in the "civilised world" employed by the Nazis & the Japanese in WW2

 

[Gingosporting]

The only thing is with Pandas being so cheap anyway and with that thing being such a disgustingly ugly rip off who in Europe is going to buy it? When I was looking for my Sporting a dealer offered me a 57 plate Multijet with 10 miles on the clock for £5995!!

JON

 

[Derv drinker]

who in Europe is going to buy it?

I bet this has been said before when Honda and Datsun started shipping out their little cars in the 60's and 70's. to compete with our little cars. Remenber those Datsun 120Y's.

 

[Gingosporting]

What I mean is that the genuine Panda is so inexpensive I cant see that the Chinese can make, ship, gain type approval, market and sell this fake for much less than the genuine article.

JON

 

[Jai]

perception is a great destroyer of reputation, old or new. people still carp on about italian cars and rust, when in reality they are talking about a situation decades ago.....the new invasion from china, whilst echoing that of the japanese has a major problem, the game has moved on significantly. back then a car that started first time, everytime was new, and whilst body and rust wise they had a lot to learn, they did it super fast. nowadays, buyers expect quality and value from the get go, it must tick all the boxes right now. value, safety, economy, looks, that little something extra..... first look at the crash test footage, of a "modern" chinese built car, and i don't think many potential buyers will see it through to opening their wallets...

 

[Planty]

This makes me laugh... and such a bizarre model name. Still fits nicely into there line up. Just been watching a promo for Great wall motors on youtube. Any body facey driving round town in a 'Wingle'?