Technical Gasoline smell in oil

[Rado77]

Just an update - service will give me 200 Eur back. That's enough to buy all needed tools and material for doing head rebuild by myself. For now I'll only check if ticking will get worse. If not than OK. If yes, I'll do it

Needed tools:
- new head gasket + bolts
- timing locking tools (crankshaft/camshaft)
- valve springs compression tool
- clearance gauges
- torque wrench
- little bit of silicone under valve cover gasket
- brushing paste + suction hand tool (in case if grinding of valve seats needed)
- brake cleaner fluid
- tool for honing cylinders (if needed)
- tool for measuring flat surface
- sandpapers
- torx bit for VVT variator cap

Is there anything else mandatory for head refurbishment?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Is there anything else mandatory for head refurbishment?

Oil change after job is done.
And watching videos like that one...

 

[kjeldio]

I wouldn't let these clowns be in the vicinity of my car, they apparently haven't read any manual or used eLearn. I might have told them that all the valves would be bent (Clearly an 1.4l 8V), and they also didn't use the special tool for camshaft timing correctly. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to first mount the toothed belt and perform a compression test. They could just as well have started to dismantle the cylinder head, they have probably wasted some hours at the customer's expense.
BRs. Kjeld

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Don't be so quick to judge and calling people clowns (because you might be a one).
I don't speak german, but, in this case, they've got a car with a problem already in it (I guess).
Because someone tried to do the timing belt job (plus crankshaft seal) improperly in the past.
Someone broke a key on the crankshaft sprocket/pulley. Skip to 8:14 (part 1)! So timing went completely off...
It was as one casting (by the way, that's improper/risky design from mechanical engineering standpoint).

Also be careful with "eLearn" (it has WRONG - or potentially dangerous to the engine - procedure, because they tell you to drop the belt as a very first step, and then crank the cam and crankshaft to fit the locking tools - so you can bend the valves during such brainless cranking).

 

[Rado77]

Yeah I saw both videos half year ago I was also surprised that they only changed timing belt first....on engine with bent valves - it couldnt run ok...so why they doesnt check valves as first? But ok, I think my list of tools is complete + magnetic stick

 

[Bernievarian]

don't forget the "E" sockets...

 

[Rado77]

What is E- socket Bernie ? Some kind of special bits?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Now that is interesting.
The shiny 3rd valve might have been replaced recently (..maybe timing belt failure?)
A functioning exhaust valve doesn't stay that shiny.. it should look like the others.
Just a thought: could that valve have a lot of play (in the guide, thus bouncing around when seating, and the extra vibration cleaning the shaft?

Nothing really explains why that guide is missing a chunk.... i can only think of 2 possible things: casting defect, or somebody worked on the head and somehow forced a valve (still not sure it would crack the guide there).

I honestly can't remember, did you do a compression test on it?

I've got one of those USB endoscopic cameras (e-bay), it has a mirror, light and is thin enough to put inside the cylinder/exhaust ports...etc. Let me know if you'd like to have a look. might be able to see scoring on cylinder walls, and we might be able to see if any of the exhaust valves are chipped.

I'm trying to catch up with this thread, haven't been here for a while. This is the engine with the vvt cam pulley isn't it? If so then I would guess something like a broken cam belt in the past. The broken bits of guide are quite typical of damage transmitted when a valve is hit by a piston and the "new" valve in No3 seems to point in this direction too.

Having a general look round inside the cylinders with your camera might be interesting especially the top of the pistons as the valves will have left marks if it was bad enough to need a valve changed or break that guide.

 

[Bernievarian]

What is E- socket Bernie ? Some kind of special bits?

Sort of "female" torx, like for engine mount on the video... If you were in VW world, you'd need "3 square" male bits as-well (kind of torx but with 12 teeth)

BRs, Bernie

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[Rado77]

Aaaaa OK, now I know what you mean ;-) Thx

And just one thing - as I remember, when I bought this car, there was no ticking till I changed oil to original Selenia K. Can you please advice some concrete synthetic THICK oil which meet specification ACEA C3 which I can use as temporary test oil?

 

[aurick86]

I'm trying to catch up with this thread, haven't been here for a while. This is the engine with the vvt cam pulley isn't it? If so then I would guess something like a broken cam belt in the past. The broken bits of guide are quite typical of damage transmitted when a valve is hit by a piston and the "new" valve in No3 seems to point in this direction too.

Having a general look round inside the cylinders with your camera might be interesting especially the top of the pistons as the valves will have left marks if it was bad enough to need a valve changed or break that guide.

So i met up with rado, we used the camera through the spark plugs.
The quality of the camera is really bad.
- we could not see anything obviously bad.
- if anything it looked quite good.
- we could see all the valves, no missing chunks.
- the pistons were a bit dirty(normal junk from a cold start a few km away), but had no visible signs of being hit (still possible.. but we couldn't see it)
- the cylinder walls had no visible scratches,
-crosshatch was looking good.

We had a bit of doubt in one of the cylinders, we thought we were seeing scratches, but in really it was only the camera's light reflecting (we could make out, that the "scratches" we were seeing would move over the crosshatches in the cylinder as we moved the camera.. so we were seeing light NOT scratches)

The compression tester didn't quite work out to get good consistent readings.
It was the type you press on to the spark plug hole... and the rubber seal would some times slide over the metal tube . We didn't have the right adapter to screw into the hole.

We repeated the measurement a few times for each cylinder... they were roughly around 200psi... when the gauge kept the max reading it was between ~195psi to ~210psi.... that's not difference between cylinders but difference in readings, on the same cylinder. (we also got a quite a few readings where the gauge didn't hold the max pressure.. those got anywhere between 90-170 psi )

There was variation in readings... even on the same cylinder, so i'm putting that on the gauge and the person holding the gauge (me )

There was a bit more blow-by than my 230k km t-jet.
So something isn't quite right there ... could simply be stuck rigs in the pistons because the lack or regular oil changes the engine went through.


A leak down test would tell more.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

So i met up with rado, we used the camera through the spark plugs.
The quality of the camera is really bad.
- we could not see anything obviously bad.
- if anything it looked quite good.
- we could see all the valves, no missing chunks.
- the pistons were a bit dirty(normal junk from a cold start a few km away), but had no visible signs of being hit (still possible.. but we couldn't see it)
- the cylinder walls had no visible scratches,
-crosshatch was looking good.

We had a bit of doubt in one of the cylinders, we thought we were seeing scratches, but in really it was only the camera's light reflecting (we could make out, that the "scratches" we were seeing would move over the crosshatches in the cylinder as we moved the camera.. so we were seeing light NOT scratches)

The compression tester didn't quite work out to get good consistent readings.
It was the type you press on to the spark plug hole... and the rubber seal would some times slide over the metal tube . We didn't have the right adapter to screw into the hole.

We repeated the measurement a few times for each cylinder... they were roughly around 200psi... when the gauge kept the max reading it was between ~195psi to ~210psi.... that's not difference between cylinders but difference in readings, on the same cylinder. (we also got a quite a few readings where the gauge didn't hold the max pressure.. those got anywhere between 90-170 psi )

There was variation in readings... even on the same cylinder, so i'm putting that on the gauge and the person holding the gauge (me )

There was a bit more blow-by than my 230k km t-jet.
So something isn't quite right there ... could simply be stuck rigs in the pistons because the lack or regular oil changes the engine went through.


A leak down test would tell more.

Compressions around 200psi per cylinder looks pretty good to me. For example, If you got that on maybe 3 cylinders but only say 50 or 70 psi on the other one then you would have something to worry about.

I'm puzzled by your statement that there is more "blow by" than on your t-jet. Blow by to me means compression leaking past the piston/s into the lower regions - crankcase/sump - of the engine. You seem to know about cylinder leak testing as you mention it in your last sentence and this would be the way to check for blow by but you haven't done this yet? so what makes you say blow by is a problem?

Wish I lived nearer you guys, I'd love to have a listen to this one. It's really fascinating me!

regards
Jock

 

[Rado77]

Hard to say about blow by, on my Fluence 1.6 is almost the same blow by pressure and engine is in 100% condition.
The main issue with compression testing was that compression tool has bigger ending that spark plug holes. Thats why we measured as we could. We measured max values 220, 210, 220 and 210 psi for cylinders, but tool sometimes couldnt hold max value and dropped back down to 170 for example...But Aurick saw max measured values. That was aldo cheapest tool to buy... but we agreed that compressions are ok and theres no need for wet test. Engine is starting really quick (its also S&S system which must start engine very quickly), so overal I think that compression is ok.
One guy on YouTube commented one of my videos - he has the same ticking problem. He replaced whole cyljnder head, but ticking is still there... but I'm still playing with my thought about thick oil, becausecas I mentioned before - there was no hot ticking when we bought this car and there was old thick oil...
And also oil filter - since I have this car, I used 2 times oil filter BOSCH P2041 (EAN code: 3165141830484) with specifications:
Opening pressure of back valve - 0.12 bar
Opening pressure of circulating valve - 1 bar
I don't know originial oil filter which FIAT mounts and it's specifications....can you guys explain this?
Web shows me some MAHLE OC521 as original with "Bypass Valve Opening Pressure - 1.3 bar", then "MAHLE OC196 with bypass 1.0 bar", another spare for example UFI with bypass 0.7 bar .... which is original please ? In ePER I see filter with PN : 55256470 but when I search for replacements, I see many filter from many brands, each with different bypass pressure value.... ???

Maybe I have to separate my hot ticking issues to two different things - one is that engine was overheated and someone did cylinder head component(s) replacement. But maybe ticking is completely different thing , because:
1, it was not there when I bought car (some oil filter...I dont remember it's name, some oil...)
2, ticking is rising with engine temperature
3, ticking is cycling - 16 x ticks, then 2 seconds silence...and over and over

So it must somehow depend on oil pressure or something like that....thats why I'm thinking about test with some thick oil, or to change my BOSCH oil filter to original one

 

[aurick86]

Compressions around 200psi per cylinder looks pretty good to me. .....

You seem to know about cylinder leak testing as you mention it in your last sentence and this would be the way to check for blow by but you haven't done this yet? .....

so what makes you say blow by is a problem?

Yes, compression is very good.

We didn't to a cylider leak down test .. because we don't have the tools or the space to work on cars

Blow by was easily observable at oil fill cap, could really feel the air pressure coming out of the oil fill. It didn't seem so much at first... the i started my t-jet, and it felt like it had less blow by (4*km.. and t-jet should be slightly looser).

 

[nikrox]

isnt the ticking sound potentially the cams lifters?..maybe valves/shims needs adjusting.

 

[Rado77]

Car was in original service to check valve clearances - they said that it's ok (0.45 for ex, 0.35 for in)...I saw also paper where mechanic wrote those values. But ....can I really believe them? By stethosope, ticking is going from cylinder head somewhere in the middle and lower...I hear it most on exhaust manifold's body near cylinder head, louder on 2nd and 3rd cylinder. But not on valve cover.
I need to know which oil filter exactly is OK to use (especialy value of bypass pressure (Bar). I used this , is it ok?
http://www.olejcentrum.sk/BOSCH-Olejovy-filter-P2041-d1451983.htm

 

[SRafferty]

Camshaft bearings if the noise is cyclic? Just a thought.

 

[Rado77]

No no, cycling is like: 4 times per second. And now - its 16x tick, then 2 seconds silence...and again 16x tick, then 2 seconds silence...and over and over. When engine temp is for example 70C, ticking starts. But when engine is not on operational temp, it starts ticking like 4 times tick, then 4 seconds silence and over and over. So its like....like some oil pressure or what....something is presurized with oil (ticking), buf once it reach some presure, it allow to move oil further and it stops to tick...and over again. Thats crazy. It's more than half year and I still didnt figure it out

 

[SRafferty]

That's a pattern, therefore cyclic.

 

[Bernievarian]

That's a pattern, therefore cyclic.

Let's assume the ticks come from ONE cylinder...

- 4 clicks a second means 240 cycles per minute (engine)
- the same but from cams system means 480 engine cycles

Both are (way) too low even for an idling engine BUT could very well correspond to the pattern with which the ECU attempts to move the VVT.
And if I remember well the VVT angle doesn't move...? Thicker oil might had behaved differently (sound-wise) in the past so as the ticks weren't audible or simply not there!

I'd give it a try with a slightly thicker oil just to rule that out.

BRs, Bernie

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